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To: 4rthofjuly007 who wrote (55150)	10/2/2002 12:36:25 PM
From: Eva	Respond to of 209892

........so now this is a Hockey Thread? grrreeeeeeeeeeeat

To: 4rthofjuly007 who wrote (55150)	10/2/2002 2:03:05 PM
From: reaper	Respond to of 209892

you over-rate the additions that Jeter makes on offense verus his deficiencies on defense. his on-base % the last two years was 377 in 2001 and 373 this year. this is not materially different that the on-base %s put up by all of ARod, Tejada, Nomar, David Eckstein, Jose Hernandez, Edgar Renteria. all those guys slug higher than he does, with the exception of Eckstein (with ARod an insane 200 pts higher and both Nomar and Tejada 100 pts higher). plus, for his higher OBP than the slick-fielding shortstops like Vizquel and Bordick, what are you really getting? Jeter on average is +/- 25-30 runs worse than average as a shortstop (as per Baseball Prospectus, which uses a system similar to Bill James). Vizquel and Bordick, as superior fielders, are 10-15 runs better than average. OK, so that's 35-45 runs that Jeter is inferior to those so-called all-field, no-hit shortstops. this year Jeter's OBP was .373, Vizquel's was .341. over 675 plate appearances, that means Jeter gets on base +/- 25 times more than Vizquel. Jeter scores +/- one run per 2.29 times on base. so that's 11 more runs. no where near the defensive deficiency. Bordick has a truly laughable .302 on-base percentage (reminiscent of the skinny Dominican middle infielders like Alfredo Griffin). again, over +/- 675 plate appearances that difference is worth about 48 more times on base for Jeter, or about 21 more runs, so even compared to pathetic-stick Mike Bordick its not enough to make up the difference. according to Bill James, Jeter ranks 103rd in terms of all-time innings played at shortstop. only two of the 102 players who played more innings were worse fielders (had lower defensive win shares totals). look, i'm not trying to argue that Jeter is as bad as Neifi Perez or Juan Uribe (i.e. one of the single worst players in baseball). what i am arguing (and what MM and i go way back on) is that Jeter is not NEARLY as good as his press clippings, and objective evidence reveals that when his offense and defense are combined he is barely better than an average shortstop in today's major leagues. and for every little 'intangible' thing that you can come up with where he 'wins' a game (as if he did it all by himself) i can come up with things like last nights two grounders which nobody notices that cost the Yankees games (although they overcame his blunders last night). btw, check the following URL for a Yankee fan's comments on Jeter's defense (the dude obviously also reads Bill James and Baseball Prospectus) futilityinfielder.com Cheers