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Politics : Foreign Affairs Discussion Group -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?

To: Karen Lawrence who wrote (50341)	10/8/2002 9:27:52 PM
From: Hawkmoon	Read Replies (2) \| Respond to of 281500

First you say, we shouldn't care that the rest of the world decries and condemns us for our talk of an attack on Iraq. Karen.. even I understood what Nadine was trying to say... She correctly states that we should not be overly concerned about condemnations from the rest of the world because they are seeking to make us doubt ourselves and the rightness of our intentions in order to not to be perceived as "in league" against their "arab brothers".. But the reality is that most Arabs recognize that Saddam is "bad for business".. Of course the Wahhabis have an different perspective because they are afraid of a US presence so close to SA,.. but the moderate and modernist Arabs (businessmen and many intellectuals) recognize that Saddam has to go... We should care about what they say.. but what they DON'T SAY with regard to any perceptions they may have about our being weak... In a simplistic comparison, they are like children testing their school teacher to see what they can get away with... All of the children might eventually rail against the teacher if she threatens but never carries out those threats... And if she never pulls out the ruler and let's the kids remain uncontrollable, they will eventually have nothing but contempt for them... I know... during my sophomore year in high school, I was a "accessory" to just such scenario.. A couple of students in my geometry class were constantly challenging the teacher, who would respond by threatening to send them to the principle (who wouldn't do anything..).. He threatened us constantly as we all disrupted class, "huffing and puffing" and often seeing his face turn beet red... but we all knew he was a "weenie" and it became a test of wills to see if we could make him quit... He did... And to this day I regret ever having been a part of it because I know that we were wrong and he didn't deserve it because he was trying to do the right thing.. But at the time, we all had nothing but contempt for the guy... Now had he came out with his own paddle and started laying down the law... or merely not losing his temper or losing control, we would have had much more respect for him.. That's what's happening in the middle east... Saddam is "easy" to support because he's the underdog in this fight and Arabs don't want to be seen opening supporting an "infidel" because of cultural pride... But they know that overthrowing, or at least castrating Saddam is imperative.. and they can't figure out why we are concerning ourselves with everyone else's opinions when they have done nothing to contain him themselves... You can't lead from behind... And when you have power everyone else who lacks it themselves will criticize you for exhibiting it... Because it only emphasizes how impotent they themselves are. Hawk

To: Karen Lawrence who wrote (50341)	10/8/2002 9:30:55 PM
From: Nadine Carroll	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 281500

How can you have it BOTH ways. First you say, we shouldn't care that the rest of the world decries and condemns us for our talk of an attack on Iraq. NOw you do a 180 and say we SHOULD care that some perceive us as weak? Oh boy, are you confused. No, Karen, I think you have conflated two things, actually four things, that are quite distinct. 1 & 2. Public diplomatic pronouncements vs. real perceptions. I've noticed before that you tend to take diplomatic pronouncements at face value. That's almost always a big mistake. They usually have some tangential relation to real opinions, at best. It's the real opinions that you have to try to fathom by reading between the lines, and most of all, noticing actions more than words. 3 & 4. Paying attention to the world's opinion vs. promising to be bound and tied by it -- to take no action unless we get a "Mother, may I?" from some international body. We need to pay attention to world opinion since it will affect us. IMO, the disrespect we permitted to grow in the Arab world has already affected us very badly. But that does not mean that it is at all in our interest to cripple the US foreign policy in the interests of the UN Security Council, as some would have us do. Considering the behavior of the UNSC, which generally acts for the naked short-term self-interest of the members, it's not in the rest of the world's interests that we do so either. It's very easy to call the US's foreign policy bad names, until you seriously compare it to any other country's foreign policy. Then, it looks positively altruistic by comparison.