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Politics : Foreign Affairs Discussion Group -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?

To: JohnM who wrote (52216)	10/15/2002 1:07:34 PM
From: Nadine Carroll	Respond to of 281500

It's important, Bill, to think of the Israeli population as a separate dimension from the Sharon govt, overlapping on some things, not on others. And within the Israeli population multiple voices. I would gues that something like that is also true on the Palestinian side of things. I would guess that it's quite different on the Palestinian side of things as a) they have cultural tradition to "follow their sheikhs" (I'm quoting one of Arafats PLC opponents here) that equates political dissension with treason, b) dissenters get shot at by their own side, as Hawk just pointed out to you, and c) dissenters have almost no access to the media, which is why dissenting opinions leak out of Moscow or London. This doesn't happen on the Israeli side, which has traditions of a free press, political opposition, and democracy. Dissenters publish their views in the (still prestigious, but now unpopular) Haaretz daily. They are just not getting much traction. According to the most recent poll, only 15% of Israeli voters now support Labor. 60% of Israelis think that this is an existential war. Do you understand what that implies? Now if you say that the Palestinians have dissenting opinions whether they feel free to express them or not, I would agree; but there is no equivalence to the relation each population has with its government.

To: JohnM who wrote (52216)	10/15/2002 2:03:39 PM
From: Hawkmoon	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 281500

The Sharon govt is the Israeli govt. Certainly. Well... gee whiz John... Thanks for acknowledging that Israel is a democracy and that, like it or not, Sharon is their ELECTED leadership. Now why don't you take the next step and ask why the Israeli people, who elected Shimon Peres, who has been both Foreign Minister under Rabin (before he was assassinated by right wing Israeli extremists) as well as Prime Minister, AND SOMEONE who stretched his hand out to Arafat to achieve a peaceful resolution, were pushed into the hands of Likud by Arafat's duplicity and aggression?? Ask how how moderates and liberals in Israel were forced to rethink their positions in the face of Arafat's continuing support for terrorism, as well as his support for Saddam's unprovoked missile attacks against Israel in 1991?? The Israeli right has gained the upper hand because Arafat has shown that once he is offered an inch (in this case a kilometer), he wants a mile... All without offering anything in return. And let's face some facts... the moderate voices on the Palestinian have been quashed by Arafat and his thugs, while the extremist elements have been permitted to increase their power in an attempt to "blackmail" the Israelis into caving in to their demands... Moderate Palestinians HAVE NEVER been permitted to offer an alternative to Arafat. Arafat controls the security forces (what's left of them), the financial purse strings, and overall political power within the PA. Whereas, on the Israeli side, Sharon is FORCED to moderate his policies in order to appease liberals and moderates. I'll admit that Sharon and his Likud followers would like nothing more than to annex the West Bank. And I've already stated that I believe Israel, back in 1967, had the moral right to annex those conquered territories due to the aggression that was carried out against them, had they desired to do so, and forcing the Jordanian population to relocate east of the Jordan River. But they didn't and instead offered a policy of "land for peace" which ONLY Sadat was brave enough to take them up on. Now let's also recognize something else. The PA is a politically independent entity. Israel OWES THEM NOTHING. They have their independence to rule their allotted territory as they see fit. They have their own government (dictatorial as it is), the ability to collect taxes, and run their own affairs to the extent that Israeli security is not compromised. It ain't perfect, but it's MORE THAN THEY HAVE EVER HAD BEFORE, AND MORE THAN PALESTINIANS ENJOY UNDER HASHEMITE ARAB RULE IN JORDAN. But let's also recognize something else. The PA, being a politically independent and autonomous entity, has the responsibility not to threaten it's neighbors, whether they be Israel, Jordan, or Egypt. And given that the PA is a politically independent entity, should they opt to conduct military operations against their neighbors, or permit organizations like Hamas or PFLP to do so, that leadership is responsible for the repercussions. That's where it stands right now... Arafat runs a politically independent entity. He has elected to wage hostilities against Israel, AS WELL AS PERMITTING Hamas and PFLP to pursue their stated agenda of destroying Israel, and dragging any moderate Palestinians along "for the ride", promising them something he doesn't have the power to deliver.. He has DONE NOTHING to create confidence or security for the Israeli moderates. He has pitted extremist against extremist, Hamas against Likud.. And the moderates on BOTH SIDES have no choice but to have this continuing conflict INFLICTED UPON when they would rather just get along, raise their families, and try to make a better life for themselves than their parents had. Economic security is what the average Palestinian and Israeli desire. And Arafat can't deliver that... Economic security means having to open up his government and granting political representation to dissident factions. It means giving up his political agenda against Israel and bringing a Palestinian State "born in blood" into being in some dramatic fashion, and having to deal with the realities of providing for the needs of his people. The reality is that NO Palestinian state will be permitted by Israel to have its own military, or EVER be in a position to threaten the existence of Israel. It will NEVER be permitted to host hostile forces (Iraqis, Iranians, Hamas, PFLP... etc), and will forever be symbiotically linked to the Israeli economy for jobs and infrastructure. These are realities that moderate Palestinian leaders understand and are prepared to deal with. Arafat is not... Hawk