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Politics : Foreign Affairs Discussion Group -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?

To: JohnM who wrote (52250)	10/15/2002 4:13:07 PM
From: Nadine Carroll	Read Replies (2) \| Respond to of 281500

But I do think the Sharon govt's present policies of going after Arafat (a) strengthen Arafat, which is definitely not a Sharon goal and (b) increase the anger in the general Palestinian population such that it is more willing to support the Islamists. Are you asserting that Arafat has been strengthened during Sharon's term of office?

To: JohnM who wrote (52250)	10/15/2002 7:40:41 PM
From: LindyBill	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 281500

There are at least two possible scenarios The third one, that I think will happen first, is all out warfare between the PLO and Hamas for control. This will happen if Hamas tries to take over.

To: JohnM who wrote (52250)	10/16/2002 12:42:48 AM
From: Hawkmoon	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 281500

I'm not interested in redoing it. I'm rather interested in where we go from here. ok, john... fair enough... for you i'll ignore history and any historical precedence that either side relies upon in making their arguments. no discussion of who has a right to live there and who took what from whom. and let's not bother ourselves with discussion over which side has constantly sought to utterly wipe out the other. we'll just deal with "current history" and outline where we go from here.. ok? first off, israel has no legal, or moral, responsibility for "encouraging" a moderate palestinian government. the palestinian authority is responsible for creating a government and society that can get along with its neighbors. and it's not in israel's interest to permit either arafat or muslim militants to dominate each other, for neither alternative is condusive to israeli goals of obtaining security and recognition amongst arab nations as a state that deserves to exist. and until arabs stop supporting entities that seek to either destroy israel, or maintain a hostile interaction with them, there is no rationale reason for the israelis to accept such regime. in fact, israel has every reason, if not a moral imperative, to militarily engage and defeat any hostile government that permits its sovereign territory to be utilized for the purpose of conducting military or terrorist operations against israel (or any other neighboring state, for that matter). it is in israel's interest to have both arafat and the extremist groups destroying one another, or creating such a intolerable regime that no one in the international community could blame israel for reoccupying those territories and installing a government they find acceptable. as for the palestinians, as i've stated before, they can't figure out which group they are going to "hitch their futures" to.. arafat, who is perfectly willing to turn the average palestinian into proxy soldiers of iran and iraq (and any other arab state in the region), hoping to create a miitarized state aimed right at the heart of israel... or the militant extremists, who seek to destroy israel and subjugate palestinians to some kind of new islamic pan-arab militant empire. either way.. the true victims are the average palestinian who is denied even the standard of living that israeli arabs are permitted, namely some measure of economic and physical security. so where does the future lie? well, the ball is in the palestinian's court. they have to decide what kind of nation they wish to have. they have to decide if they can manage to economically prevail independent of israeli jobs and markets. they have to decide what will happen if israel decides to shut off their power and utilities since they aren't paying for their use or maintenance. they have to figure out how to convince the israelis to offer them more territory in the west bank. and they have to decide what they will offer in return, "friendship" (or at least mutual tolerance and respect), or continuing bloodshed in a futile attempt at defeating the israeli military power. and were i an israeli and the international community tried to force me to grant more territory to a hostile entity publicly swearing to destroy my country, i'd tell them to "pack sand". the palestinians effectively have a state right now. it ain't much of one, but it isn't going to get any bigger so long as they continue to threaten and attack their bigger and more powerful neighbor... and if i'm an israeli, i'm not going to have much more patience... if the palestinian government can't control the extremist elements of their society, "i'll" do it for them and unfortunately quite a few civilians are going to die.. and their deaths are going to be the responsibility of the palestinian government. that's the future john... it's about power... and the only power the palestinians truly have is the ability to make the israelis ashamed of themselves. and the way to do that is to be completely peaceful and resort only to non-violent resistance measures when israelis fail to negotiate honestly. passive societal resistance, not violence or intifada. that's the true weapon that palestinians possess... to use the jewish sense of "guilt" against them in order to obtain what the palestinians believe they deserve. hawk@nocaps.com