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Politics : Foreign Affairs Discussion Group -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?

To: Win Smith who wrote (52448)	10/16/2002 3:33:00 PM
From: LindyBill	Respond to of 281500

You figure it would have stopped the Bali thing, for example? The thing that pisses me off about Bali is that we did not warn our citizens to get out. State failed again. They knew some sort of attack was coming up. The Government of Indonesia was repeatedly warned by us that this was going to happen, and who was going to be involved. They ignored us, and paid the price. What we will do there is help them track down the terrorists, if they will wake up and let us, and keep track of any terrorists that harbor there and take a plane anywhere else. This is an ongoing, World-Wide War, Win. Hello?

To: Win Smith who wrote (52448)	10/16/2002 8:51:35 PM
From: Hawkmoon	Respond to of 281500

You and the other hawks thing a big war and occupation thing in the mideast is a good idea, that's your business. Not so much a "good idea", as it is a necessary one (or at least an implicit and credible threat)... Which requires me to ask you (and for you to ask yourself)... Do you believe the United Nations has the authority to request war be wage against violators of its binding resolutions? Was it being "war hawkish" on the part of the UN to issue those binding resolutions against Iraq in 1990?? And is it being "war hawkish" for the US to essentially require the UN to make good on its own legal judgements and "search warrants", since it has been relying upon US forces to contain Saddam?? Should the UN rescind those resolutions and essentially declare that the effort to remove Iraq from Kuwait, and to call for it's disarmanent (a peaceful policy)??? Make me wonder sometimes what kind of country we'd live in if legal courts did notthing but issue judgements and arrest warrants, but no one was "brave" enough to enforce them.. So if anyone is "blustering" around here, it's the United Nations, don't you think?? And Win.. you know how I feel about the demographics of the muslim world. They are growing faster than the west, and the majority of their population consists of young people who are particularly receptive to calls for "jihad" by their corrupt leadersm, in particular, militant fundamentalists. And this has been a trend we've seen growing more quickly over the past 15 years. So whether you accept it or not, we're in a cultural war battling for the "hearts and minds" of hundreds of millions of muslim youths. And we haven't got a choice but to fight the battle on our terms, not theirs. They will carry the battle to us, via our own open societies. As for Indonesia, it's a threat, but it's mainly one that consists against shipping in the region. And Indonesia is difficult to control for any government given that it consists of thousands of tropical islands. That makes it geographically isolated, and not particularly suited to centralizing it's influence in a way that blatantly threatens it's neighbors (minus possession of WMDs).. Who really suffer are the Indonesian people.. The attack against westerners was designed to scare western investment out of the country. To devastate the tourist trade.. To undermine the current government's credibility in favor of an Islamic one. And I predict a particularly VICIOUS counter-insurgency campaign in Indonesia unless the sources of financial and military support can be interdicted or eliminated. Once again.. the future of muslim youth is at stake. They need jobs and the promise of an economic future, not a futile Jihad being waged on behalf of power hungry clerics. Would you be more concerned were we discussing some scenario where the Catholic church was supporting terrorism, than one where militant Islamic fundamentalists are looking to overturn centuries of economic progress?? Hawk