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To: maceng2 who wrote (24577)	10/25/2002 11:59:17 PM
From: maceng2	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 74559

Some WW2 Irish history. Message 16605618 (First two links do not work, rest do. Including Colonel Donovans letter to FDR and Churchill) Churchill would have given NI to De Valera (Irelands PM at the time), if she would have freed up some Southern Irish ports to fight the Battle of the Altantic. He didn't, being a stubborn guy, and even signed his condolences at the German embassy on the death of Hitler. Wrong move. His speech defending his reasons why though explain a lot of Irish History and attidude. When you read Colonel Donovans letter to FDR you also see the concern about how the Catholics were being treated in NI at the time. Here is the text... ========================================================== Telegram No. 932 From: Embassy, London Sent: March 11, 1941, S p.m. Rec'd: 10:20 a.m. PARAPHRASE REGRADED UNCLASSIFIED From Colonel Donovan for the Secretary of the Navy. I went to Ireland as you suggested in your communication. Factors are many and there is no better narrative than in the communication dated February 7, 1941 to the Under Secretary of State from our Minister, David Gray. The pressure of the Catholic minority in Northern Ireland is my idea the core of the situation at present. Through the medium of the Cardinal Primate of Armagh pressure is imposed on de Valera. MaCrory is a determined,eloquent Nationalist and vigorous man of 80 who relentlessly and openly repeats the litany of injuries and wrongs which the Northern Irish Government he claims is causing the Catholic minority to suffer. In this estimate I am sure I am right because I found that de Valera with me did not spend his time explaining the history of the relations between England and Ireland as he did with others, I have been told. On the contrary he and I came at once to the danger of invasion by Germany. De Valera seemed worried and disturbed and yet anxious that I understand that in this cause he and his government were friendly to England. He also stated that he was opposed and had been to the elimination by force of the partition issue as he felt that only by evolution could they have unity. He could resist invasion successfully and save England a diversion of troops if Ireland were properly armed. The resistance of the people to any situation making available bases was referred to by him again and again, to their distrust of the intentions of Britain which even so far extended as to allow troops to land to resist known Nazi attack until actually the troops of Germany had come in, and the determination of the Irish people to remain neutral even over America's request. In order that I should understand this he said he had requested the Cardinal to come from the North and discuss matters with me. There is no need for me to state what I said to both. Of them but I do believe that there are dangerous elements which may have consequences of a very serious nature to British defense if not dealt with. It is my opinion that they can be dealt with if we and the British act rapidly. Mr. Churchill telephoned me when I returned and invited me to Checquers. Menzies, who is the Prime Minister of Australia, was there. I expressed my belief to them that the center of trouble lay in the North and that this trouble was emphasized by de Valera's failure to permit the Irish people to be enlightened of what was taking place in the outside world, but I felt throughout that he would wish to be in on Britain's side if he were free. I was asked to express my views as to the remedy. I told them this was not a job of fighting but rather one of statesmanship: that the fear of the Irish that the proper arming would not be permitted by the British as they intended to seize the ports; that if force were used, it would be necessary in order to hold the bases for the occupation of Ireland; that this would be worse than non-use of the bases as it would play into the German hands, and it would mean diversion of British troops needed badly at home. In addition the situation in the United States would be endangered. Menzies agreed with all of this and said Irish Origin of his people are 23 percent and force would effect the opinion of the Australians. I stated with emphasis (a) that some kind of contact should be established by England with de Valera, that there appeared to be a curtain of asbestos hanging between England and Ireland, that unless an appeal was made by means of a liaison between de Valera and Churchill to their amour propre the willing support of the Irish could not be gained, and that de Valera constantly referred to the absence of this liaison; (b) that the Prime minister should look into the veracity of the complaints against the Northern Irish and that irritation whenever possible should be removed; that opinions and speeches should receive publicity such as those of the 2nd in command of Cosgroves, Dillon, who is urging Ireland as an obligation to civilization and Christianity to join England and declare war; (d) that it should be seen to by us that Aiken, Minister of War of Ireland, be seen.Moreover we should see to it that American defense measures impress him, that you and other Cabinet members who have experienced war service talk to him, and that, as I made clear to de Valera, it should be emphasized to him that the United States was only furnishing with arms those countries of whose intention to help the democracies there was no doubt. (Aiken is possibly in America for other reasons. He is of the extreme left); (e) that if practicable General Scanlon's suggestion of several weeks ago be adopted to bring Ireland into our sphere, to carry our naval, military and governmental representatives to Foynes from Boston by air. It is necessary for us to get rid of the veil of unreality under which Ireland is living if we really intend to influence her. (f) In view of the fact that if anything is to be accomplished we must bring Ireland into our sphere and it might be a good plan, not an inconceivable one, to issue an invitation to de Valera to come to America. I was told by the Prime Minister that he would investigate the complaints and would deal with anything wrong.Mr. Churchill also said although he was for a united Ireland he would not compel it. Me stated that he would have to back up Northern Ireland and give support to this position should de Velera not come in. However, the situation would change should de Valera come in with Great Britain, in which case he would attempt to solve the matter using all this influence to do so, Churchill said that to arrive at a solution he would be willing to grant sufficient defense protection before a base was set up, and that likewise he would as a preliminary step towards a final arrangement establish an all-Ireland defense commission. Following this Menzies and Churchill agreed that the former should go to Ireland this week and discuss the matter with de Valera. Everybody in England realizes how urgently these bases in Ireland are needed. I am sure that our help in securing the Irish bases is greatly hoped for.

To: maceng2 who wrote (24577)	10/26/2002 12:08:57 AM
From: Maurice Winn	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 74559

Thanks for the data PB. A couple of things stand out to me there. The Catholics killed 1,900 so did far more killing than the rest, who killed 1,300. I wonder what the definition of 'civilian' was. The definition is obviously faulty, as there were 16 people killed by 'civilians', of whom 13 were classified as 'civilian'. A civilian killing somebody is obviously not a civilian. They are an enemy combatant. So the definition of civilians is faulty. Then, we see that the Loyalists killed 818 'civilians'. I wonder if these 'civilians' were the same type of 'civilians' who killed 16 other people, including 13 'civilians'. I suspect that the 818 included a lot of combatants who were not really civilians. Just as the Palestinians claimed many 'civilians' were killed, who just happened to be carrying guns at the time of their death. I can understand that the parent of an Omagh child would be inclined to do the same back. Tit for Tat does seem to be a successful negotiating method. Since the Catholics did the majority of the killing, it's obvious that more people feel victimized on the other side. Mqurice