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Politics : Foreign Affairs Discussion Group -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?

To: Ilaine who wrote (55493)	10/29/2002 4:55:18 PM
From: jcky	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 281500

Couldn't possibly have anything to do with the fact that you don't like Pipe's politics. It is not just the politics which is disturbing about Pipes. Pipes is an American and is entitled to his opinion. Pipes is also an academician and his outlet for dissent with his peers should be held to a standard of professional conduct. If Pipes wants to create an official Israeli black list, fine, that is within his constitutional right: indiscreet and certainly tacky and well within his means. But be forewarned, this is a two-edged sword. One of these days, someone is going to spoof him by posting an official list of Israeli apologists. Pipes would garner so much more credibility if he would simply let his writing speak for his opinion.

To: Ilaine who wrote (55493)	10/29/2002 8:55:53 PM
From: JohnM	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 281500

CB, It's painfully clear you and I are talking past one another, in dramatic fashion. I'll take one more cut at this topic; you might wish to reply. Then let's call it off. You imagine this (threat of physical violence) to be the case, but there is no evidence that it is true. You've made it up out of whole cloth. I have not imagined that websites have listed abortion providers who have subsequently been attacked, even murdered. I have not imagined that faculty have been assaulted, even killed in disputes with students, recently. I have not imagined that Pipes calls these faculty members unAmerican. I have not imagined there is a near hysteria of hyper patriotism in the country at the moment. >>Now, we are back to the assumption that Pipes and his crew are unalloyed conduits for infallible truths and their opponents are evil folk who deserve to be targeted.<< You made this part up, too. CB, go back and read the post from which I took that. Your post, I assume you typed it, basically says that Pipes and his crew are tracking people who are leading the naive students of this country astray, that they are the equivalent of Quislings in WWII. If that's not assuming Pipes and company have the truth and their opponents not only don't but are evil, I don't know what does. I'm even having a hard time typing that. I am trying to understand where you got these ideas from, and the only thing I can think of is that you imagine that the country has a number of violent lunatics who really care whether a university professor is in favor of Said, are unable to read books and scholarly publications to find out the ones who do favor Said, but are able to read the Internet, so now will follow these professors home and kill them and their families. No, I don't think that. I think that, in the current atmosphere, if faculty members are labeled unAmerican, that students are asked to gather information about their classes, etc. to further advance the charge of unAmerican activities, that one is seriously risking a crazy doing something. This, in case I have yet to make myself clear, is about the dossiers; not about putting up the webpage to advertise Pipes' views. Bill has posted that they've taken the dossiers stuff down. So we are talking about something that is no longer a problem. >>I prefer a society in which we all debate our ideas in the open without fear of physical attack.<< In other words, it's ok to debate this in the ivory towers, but not on the Internet, because some lunatic might stumble across the debate and decide to lynch someone. How elitist. How in the world you could possible twist my invitation to open debate into secret ivy league debate is beyond me. The internet is a great place to have this debate. No problem. Let Pipes put his ideas up; let others put there's up. But let everyone be careful about calling their opponents unAmerican; publishing lists on the internet, etc. CB, I've enjoyed our discussions in the past. But the last three or four posts from you are definitely not enjoyable. You've taken perfectly obvious positions of mine and twisted them into something unrecognizable. It's as if some different person has grabbed your keyboard.