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Politics : War -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?


To: Thomas M. who wrote (17531)11/5/2002 6:51:02 AM
From: lorne  Respond to of 23908
 
tommy you said..." I notice that you make no comment on the other two verses, which are, of course, the crucial part of my post.".....

tommy it's a lot more fun trying to prove how really stupid
some of these verses are than others. Even you and people like you at times say things that may make some sense.....seldom but on occasion. And like you even the quran may have things in it that are not all bad.

Will go back and see if there is anything real stupid in the other two verses you posted.



To: Thomas M. who wrote (17531)11/5/2002 7:19:11 AM
From: Brumar89  Read Replies (1) | Respond to of 23908
 
I thought the most crucial part of your post is the verse I commented on:

"[at-Taubah 9:5] Then, when the sacred months have passed, slay the idolaters wherever ye find them, and take them (captive), and besiege them, and prepare for them each ambush. But if they repent and establish worship and pay the poor-due, then leave their way free.

Actually reading the entire verse confirms that those who are idolators per Islam, are to made war on until they convert - "repent and establish worship".

The two other verses cover only special unusual circumstances - Excepting those of the idolaters with whom ye (Muslims) have a treaty, and if anyone of the idolaters seeketh thy protection.

Enough about idolators. Here is what Muslims are supposed to do re. Christians and Jews:

Sura al-Anfal 8:39 (Shakir's translation)
Non-Muslims must submit to Islam and pay the Jizya tax as a way to show their acknowledgment of Muslim superiority, as well as to feel themselves subdued and inferior to Muslim power. The Qur'an calls upon Muslims to make no-Muslims dhimmis, a religious status that puts non-Muslims into an inferior and oppressed position within a true Islamic society.


I don't know what Muslims are to do with godless atheists like you Thomas. You live in a Christian oriented society. So perhaps you should only be made to acknowledge Muslim superiority. Do you acknowledge this? Do you feel subdued and inferior to Muslim power?

Why would an atheistic communist like you take up for the most backward and intolerant religion around? I figure that with communism universally discredited, you folks have nothing left but anti-Americanism. And the most militant anti-American forces around today are Muslim. Pretty much on target?



To: Thomas M. who wrote (17531)11/5/2002 7:48:40 AM
From: lorne  Read Replies (2) | Respond to of 23908
 
tommy. Can you or any other moslem here explain to me why moslems refer to unbelievers ( people like me ) as idolaters when every year hundreds of thousands of moslems walk around and around a black rock in mecca. Is the black rock some sort of IDOL?...Metorite...
How many of those people walking around this black rock have the slightist idea of why they are doing what they are doing and how really silly it is?



To: Thomas M. who wrote (17531)11/5/2002 8:52:17 AM
From: lorne  Respond to of 23908
 
tommy. In this post you said..." Why Are We So Afraid Of The Cultural Richness Of Islam?
Message 18115924

Here is one example of islam cult-ural rishness. Could this be a reason for fear?

Hamas launches webzine for kids
Journal praises martyrs, encourages children to follow example
November 5, 2002
By Jon Dougherty
Islamic terror group Hamas has launched a new Web magazine for kids that praises martyrs while encouraging children to follow the example of committing suicide for the "cause."

Complete with cartoon characters and other pictures demonstrating the "heroism of Palestinian children," the online magazine, titled Al-Fateh, promises "pages discussing Jihad (holy war), scientific pages, the best stories, not be found elsewhere, and unequalled tales of heroism." The webzine's editor hopes it will be read by "our beloved youth, the leaders of the future."

The name of one of the main cartoon characters – a small boy on horseback wielding a sword – is "The Conqueror." Translated, Al-Fatah could have several meanings, one Arabic expert told WND, one of which is "conqueror."

The online journal was discovered by The Media Line, an Israel-based media research firm that examines and analyzes "the world's most complex and explosive region," the Middle East.

"If you did not know what was inside the journal, you would most probably presume that it was all entirely innocent," said a Media Line analysis. "It is anything but."

Noting that Palestinian leaders have made "wide usage of children to further their struggle," analysts said the online journal publishes photos that "demonstrate the overtly didactic nature" of its true intent.

The impression generated on the majority of the pages of the newspaper is that of cute animations, but this is a means of cushioning the entry of Palestinian children into the reality of the struggle," said analysts.

David Zev Harris, Media Line's bureau chief in Jerusalem, told WorldNetDaily his organization was tipped off to the Hamas-sponsored webzine.

"While we're used to seeing the Palestinians using children," this publication was "uniquely interesting" because of its subtlety, he said.

"More often, the message is more straightforward," he said. Palestinians will show kids "in front of an Israeli tank or dressed as soldiers pretending to shoot at Israeli soldiers."

"This looks much more innocent," he said. The cartoon kids featured in the magazine "have really little faces, and some of the stories are very sweet and have absolutely nothing to do with the [uprising against Israel] whatsoever."

Once inside the magazine, however, Harris said the message becomes more clear: luring kids into the life of martyrdom.

"The newspaper's stories emphasize the heroism of children against the cruel enemy, but also mix in other elements which can be seen time and again in Palestinian propaganda," said the group's analysis.

"For example, the story of Mihnad, illustrating three important elements in the struggle. Firstly, the link to land and trees, the second of course is the heroism of children against soldiers, and the third is the strong nationalism which finds expression in a Palestinian flag fluttering in the wind. The plot of the story describes how Israeli soldiers demand that Mihnad pulls down a Palestinian flag flying above an olive tree. Mihnad refuses and does not give in even when he is shot at. When they force him to climb up the tree, Mihnad cries, 'Long live my land in freedom; long live the flag.' The soldiers kill Mihnad in reaction, and he is left clutching the flag, drenched in his own blood."

"Children reading this paper are not only exposed to stories of heroism in fiction, but also to real-life stories," the analysis continues. "Next to cute and innocent stories like the one about the 'ravenous rabbit,' the newspaper instills into the hearts of its young readers the importance of the armed struggle and the heroism of suicide."

Yet, while some Palestinian families are "honored" to have their children die for the cause, Harris said that feeling was not universal throughout the Palestinian communities.

"Right now there is a popular video on Palestinian television that shows a mother, after one of her teen-age sons has been killed by Israeli 'terrorists,' producing a Palestinian flag rifle and handing it to her next eldest son as if to say, 'It's time to go and kill yourself for the … homeland,' as it were," he said.

"While that may be the message of the Palestinian upper echelon," he continued, "we've found that many Palestinians are frightened and are actually cajoled, persuaded or forced into" committing suicide bombings and related terrorist activities.

He said ordinary Palestinians who are unwilling to participate in the "jihad" against Israel sometimes are accused of being Jewish collaborators and threatened with trial and death.

But, Harris said, "there is no doubt that some people are really keen on this. The militancy has been prevalent in Palestinian communities for many years."

In addition, he said, "don't forget that [Iraqi President] Saddam Hussein is giving $10,000 to the family of every suicide bomber.

"When you're living in the abject poverty that Palestinians are, especially in Gaza, that's a lot of money," he said.

Harris said Hamas was targeting youth because they would be easier to "convert" to the cause than adults.

"If you've got a fervor for the cause coupled with the passion of youth," he said, "it's probably a lot easier to persuade people" to participate.
worldnetdaily.com



To: Thomas M. who wrote (17531)11/5/2002 9:00:25 AM
From: lorne  Respond to of 23908
 
tommy. And here is another example of islam cult-ural richness in response to your question in this post.
...." Why Are We So Afraid Of The Cultural Richness Of Islam?
Message 18115924

Is this a good reason for fear tommy is it tommy is it?

Wife-slave flees Pakistani home
Woman victim of growing market in sale of females
November 5, 2002
By Jan Khaskheli
A Bangladeshi woman who says she was sold to her husband has fled her home in the mountainous district of southern Sindh province in Pakistan, seeking refuge at the Hyderabad Press Club.

Arian Parveen wept as she told reporters that she was afraid her in-laws might kill her if she returned home.

"I want separation from my cruel husband. I cannot live with him any longer. I cannot tolerate more anguish," she said.

Parveen, from Dhaka, Bangladesh, was brought to Pakistan's port city of Karachi by her cousin on the pretext of marrying her. Instead, he sold her to one Abbas from Manjhand for 20,000 rupees (about U.S.$350). Since then she has been living with him.

"I was sold like a goat and have forgotten my mother tongue (Bengali) as well as the address of my home in Dhaka," Parveen said.

She says she is the daughter of a lawyer and recalls that her father's name is also Abbas. "I don't know more about my parents there because I didn't have postal access to communicate with them. I have been under tremendous pressure," she said.

Parveen is unable to recall the exact year when she was brought to Karachi.

"I had compromised with in-laws since I have five children from my Pakistani husband, two daughters and three sons. I am afraid that I will not see the children again," she said, bursting into tears.

"During the Nikah (marriage) ceremony, I was given tranquilizers to keep me silent over the secret deal," explained Parveen. "I cannot excuse my cousin who betrayed me. I don't know his whereabouts."

She says she sought help from the local police station but that authorities were "reluctant" to take action against her in-laws.

Human Rights Commission of Pakistan representative Aftab Ahmed told reporters the agency will go to the court to seek justice for the woman.

Growing trend

There are many Bengali women sold in Majhand and other parts of the Sindh province who have been facing a similar situation. There reportedly is a big market for the sale of women in Karachi.

Parveen sought help at the Hyderabad Press Club just three days after a 10-year-old Pakistani girl named Najma, a peasant's daughter, fled from the same town, telling a similar story about her adult husband.

Najma reportedly was sold for 20,000 rupees after her father failed to pay a payment for a buffalo he had borrowed.

Ishaque Magrio, a Sindhi folklore writer, says babies sometimes are sold long before their birth.

National laws in Pakistan are ineffective in tribal systems where chieftains decide every matter from cattle theft to murder and kidnapping. As a result, women are being sold like animals as the ancient traditions of the tribal chiefs go unchallenged.

Sahar Rizvi is a women's activist in Hyderabad.

"The tribal chiefs through [dishonest] means get elected to Parliament. They are lawmakers here. They defend themselves through the [national] laws. They want to support centuries-old traditions instead of changing the system," said Rizvi.

Arian Parveen is one of the hundreds of victims who either have been killed or are living under brutal conditions.

According to official data, about 1,100,000 Bengalis are residing illegally in Karachi. Moreover, there are 200,000 Burmese and 2,500 Iranians. Afghanis are not considered aliens, as the government of Pakistan recognizes them as refugees.
worldnetdaily.com



To: Thomas M. who wrote (17531)11/5/2002 9:03:57 AM
From: lorne  Respond to of 23908
 
Gees tommy is this going to affect your right to vote? :O)

State to Decide if 'Idiots' Can Vote
Mon Nov 4, 8:55 AM ET
By Zelie Pollon

SANTA FE, New Mexico (Reuters) - New Mexico voters will decide on Tuesday whether they want "idiots" and "insane persons" to vote in their state.



Under the state's Constitution, drafted in 1912, "idiots" and "insane persons," as well as those "convicted of a felonious or infamous crime" are currently prohibited from voting.

Proposed Amendment 2 on the November 5 ballot would strike the terms "idiots" and "insane persons" from the Constitution. The measure will better reflect current understanding of mental health and remove archaic language, supporters said.

"There are so many varieties of mental illness with people who are perfectly capable of making a decision," said Bureau of Elections official Denise Lamb.

"I'm more worried about unstable people with guns than I am about unstable people voting," Lamb said.

The same type of amendment, with different wording, was on the ballot once before in the mid 1990s but did not pass because voters interpreted the wording as denying people a right to vote, Lamb said.

"I think it's good to bring your Constitution more in line with reality," she said.

The state's nonpartisan research group, Legislative Council Services, said the arguments in favor of the amendment are that it will remove wording that is "archaic, offensive and meaningless from the list of people ineligible to vote."

"The terms 'idiots' and 'insane persons' may not have been considered offensive in 1912, but today they are an embarrassment," the group said in a guide to voters.

It said the opposing argument suggests that removing the terms "without replacing it with terms that more accurately reflect contemporary understanding of mental health may be too sweeping a change."

The proposed amendment also lowers the voting age from 21 to 18 years, bringing the voting age in compliance with federal requirements.

Early voter Kathleen MacRae said changing the language made sense to her.

"I'm for liberalizing all voting laws. Voting should be open and easy for everyone," she said. "And God knows there are already a lot of idiots voting."
story.news.yahoo.com