To: d:oug who wrote (91106 ) 11/12/2002 9:37:26 AM From: E. Charters Read Replies (2) | Respond to of 116915 If I understand you correctly, you mean that I must learn to confuse myself before I confuse others. Actually I started out teaching myself with clarity in order to make it clear to others but I discovered in the process that to start out making sense and then to segue into confusion where ambiguity really fooled the crowd was a masterstroke of the blank look and doubtful acceptance. This beats clarity and certitude anyday, as any firm conclusion can be dismissed by propaganda anyday, but not if you are still wondering about the other side. A good example is to ask people to figure out which way the earth turns around the sun based on the length of the sidereal day versus the solar day and the theory of epicycloids. Since the earth spins counterclockwise from above (north), and the sidereal rotation or absolute spin of the earth relative to polaris is shorter than the full spin relative to the sun, it follows that if it orbits the sun clockwise or counter to its daily rotation, that the orbital spin must subtract from the daily spin, making the absolute rotation shorter and the sidereal day shorter. In other words if the earth spins to the east or counterclockwise, and orbits to the west or clockwise, then the sun-orbit subtracts in absolute terms from the daily spin. this would make the rotation from polaris' vantage point shorter. Ergo since the sidereal day is shorter, the earth orbits to the right or west around the sun. There. I told 99.99% of the world what it wanted to hear. Everyone is satisfied. It makes sense. Even the trial earth spinners with their mental earth sun models will try it and draw diagrams and decide it's right. BUT .... The earth orbits the sun to the left or east. The same way it spins daily on its own axis. And the sidereal day is still shorter by 4 minutes than the 24 hour solar day. So what happened to common sense? It's not sensible. It is lazy. It does not want a work out. You have to dig a lot deeper if you want the truth. Try another one. The moon's gravity pulls on the earth from one side and bulges tides up when it is aligned with the earth and sun. Its pull is in the same direction as the earth on the far side and the opposite on the near side. So on which side do the tides bulge out and on which side do they fall? Have a lot of fun with this one. I will go for 99.999% of the folks out there get this wrong all the way to MsC and beyond. Real simple and just as confusing. the most basic facts and models of the world are not known to most of mankind. We is dumb. And in danger of getting dumber by the minute. Drink deep or taste not the Peirian spring. EC<:-}