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Politics : Formerly About Advanced Micro Devices -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?

To: Joe NYC who wrote (154866)	11/14/2002 1:07:04 PM
From: tejek	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 1579130

That we should resign from NATO You are in a denial. Nothing happens in NATO without US approval. And nothing happens without the US initiative. So Schroeder and Chirac had nothing to do with it as you suggested in your last post. As I understood it, civil war broke out in Yugoslavia as expected, as the war escalated, the stability of the region came in to question......after all, Yugoslavia borders three NATO member nations.....Italy, Hungary and Greece. That concern plus the atrocities in Kosovo prompted NATO's involvement. The UN already had approved NATO's bombing of Bosnia. How this situation is at all similar to the proposed military action in Iraq is beyond me. As for denial, I think you may be the one who's in denial. Didn't NATO reject Rumfield's proposal to attack Iraq? While I think the US is one of the big players in NATO, there has been a dilution of its impact on NATO decisions over the past ten-fifteen years. You clearly have trouble letting go of this argument so I would really like to figure out what your point is. The point is your credibility. On one hand you endorse war in Kosovo, the most unjustified use of the US military force in my lifetime, and now you are making verbal somersaults about a use of force that has not even happened. My credibility? Like I have said above, there are significant differences in the Balkan intervention and the one proposed for Iraq. As for "the most unjustified use of US military force in your lifetime"? I am afraid that is only by your standards. Now, how can you reconcile these two? You have not offered any reasonable explanation, so I go back to the basic liberal viewpoint of Clinton war good, Bush war bad. Basically, my conclusion is that your credibility on anything related to Bush and potential war in Iraq started at zero and stayed there because of this contradiction. I will say this one more time. First, we have bigger fish to fry........al Qaeda. I see Saddam as some kind of diversion by the Bush administration for a number of reasons not of which seem all that pressing right now. Secondly, we are typically not an aggressor nation unless one of our allies is threatened and asks for our help. That was true of the Balkan wars; it was not true of proposed Iraqi war. Do you feel that Clinton's fight was stupid so Bush is allowed a stupid fight as well? My point is that Clinton fight was stupid, it exhauseted the reservoir of good will toward America, and Bush better not start a fight equally stupid. Well, if Clinton destroyed the reservoir of good will, then Bush has us on the fumes. The reality is that Clinton was well liked by most Europeans. If he was not liked in a particular country, especially those less developed ones, it had more to do with what the US stood for......a superpower, then for what Clinton stood for. As for Bush, most foreigners see him an boorish cowboy, high on testosterone.....that includes Europeans and those of the less developed nations. I know you love him; sorry if others don't. As for me being the best example of American ignorance.......the statement is laughable and you know it. Really? Your ignorance of Yugoslavia / Kosovo war was close to absolute before this thread started. You know that's BS. True I didn't remember every nuance but then again I was in a difficult period of my life. I wasn't as on top of world matters as I am now or as I was before. I know by your ridiculous standards, that is not an excuse..........but that does not make me an example of American ignorance. i>As for anti American sentiment, I have been to Europe many times, and every place I've gone there's anti American sentiment. I am not speaking about spoiled brats of Western Europe, but specifically about Eastern Europe and Russia. Apparently, I met the spoiled brats of Eastern Europe. Do you mean the Chinese were our friends until the Yugoslavia bombings? My take on China-US relations is that we have always been adverseries, but often with common interest, which made us pretend to be friends. Really? Now who is an example of American ignorance. China and the US have been strong adversaries until the past 5-10 years when China has turned to capitalism, and the US sees dollar signs. Even now, however, the political antoganism, boils below the surface. The only common interest we've had with the Chinese is making money........and the Chinese look for a million ways to screw us. The attack of Yugoslavia (with bombing of their embassy adding insult to injury) gave China moral high ground to dispose the pretended friendship, and assume the role of an adversary, and do so with pride. have you objected to the spy planes we send over there? That goes along with us being adversaries. Disposition of the politeness following Yugoslavia war gave China green light to do what they did with our spy plane. BS........you are stretching to make your point re Clinton. You need to study the history of relations between the US and China......there was no pretend friendship. They just saw us as the money man to make their dreams of prosperity possible. There is no love lost. ted

To: Joe NYC who wrote (154866)	11/25/2002 6:36:29 PM
From: tejek	Read Replies (2) \| Respond to of 1579130

That we should resign from NATO You are in a denial. Nothing happens in NATO without US approval. And nothing happens without the US initiative. I see! This past week Bush went all the way to Prague begging to get NATO's support. The best he could come up with was NATO's condemnation of Iraq; however, they refused to give material support as he had hoped. Maybe you should stick to subjects you know best or better yet, only post with your 4 year old daughter. ted