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Politics : Foreign Affairs Discussion Group -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?


To: LindyBill who wrote (59760)12/3/2002 10:25:14 PM
From: JohnM  Respond to of 281500
 
We sure saw a good example of that today. The debate between Chris Patten and Richard Perle. Chris, Nadine and I thought Perle kicked butt, you thought his argument was poor. You loved Chris Patten, Nadine thinks he is slime.

Perle is very good at this sort of thing. No doubt about it. With Patten, he did what he always does: argue against an argument that was not advanced. But he makes it close enough to the original to make it plausible.

But it's standard Perle.

And, once again, we agree to disagree.



To: LindyBill who wrote (59760)12/3/2002 11:45:38 PM
From: Nadine Carroll  Read Replies (2) | Respond to of 281500
 
Indyk calls for US-led trusteeship ahead of Palestinian statehood
By HERB KEINON

A US-led trusteeship, backed by a US fighting force, is needed to shepherd the Palestinians to a position where they are able to establish a state, former US ambassador Martin Indyk said Tuesday.

Indyk, speaking at the third annual Herzliya Conference, said although "everybody agrees that the solution is a two-state one, with an independent Palestinian state living alongside Israel, nobody knows how to get there."

The US-backed road map, the purpose of which is to lead the sides to that position, is unrealistic, Indyk said, because it demands reciprocal steps neither side will be able to carry out.

Indyk said the experiment of reform or replacing Palestinian Authority Chairman Yasser Arafat has not produced anything, and "no one in the Palestinian Authority seems to be willing or able to prevent terrorism."

Israel will not be willing to move out of Area A until there is a viable Palestinian security force that can effectively deal with terrorism, he said. As a result, what is needed is a trusteeship, an idea "used to good effect in Kosovo and East Timor," he added.

Under this plan, an international summit would be called and a Palestinian state would be declared on the 42 percent of land the Palestinians currently control, plus an additional 10% to ensure territorial contiguity.

The summit would place the area in the hands of a US-led trusteeship to help build free democratic institutions, the economy, and an effective security apparatus, Indyk said.

"The trusteeship will be in place for three years, but this will be a timeline, not a deadline, and it would remain in place until the Palestinians could prove that they can fulfill their obligations," he said. In the meantime, Israel and the Palestinians would negotiate a final-status deal, he added.

Indyk envisions an American fighting force helping the Palestinians create the security force needed to fight terrorism. Before September 11 it would have been unthinkable for American troops to fight Palestinian terrorism, but today it is within the realm of possibility, Indyk said, noting that this would be marketed to the Arabs not as fighting for Israel, but rather fighting for a Palestinian state free of terrorism.

Before Indyk's speech, former US Middle East envoy Dennis Ross said he has problems with the trusteeship idea, as well as three others floating around Washington outside the administration on how to end the conflict, because it "sends a message to the Palestinians that they do not have to assume responsibility, make decisions, and be accountable."

The other three ideas Ross discounted were imposing a solution on the sides, expelling Arafat, and letting the two sides exhaust each other and then find a solution.

Ross said assuming the US goes to war and removes Saddam Hussein, it will be a "seismic change" that may "embolden Palestinian reformers." In that situation, he said, "the Arabs will come to the president and say you proved what you can do in war, now prove what you can do in peace."

Indyk said the US should then tell the Palestinians unequivocally that Palestinian statehood will not be born out of violence. The administration should also, he said, tell other Arab governments in no uncertain terms that they need to "team with Palestinian reformers" and create a new Palestinian narrative that says it is no longer counterproductive to kill Israelis "but that it is wrong." Ross was critical of the administration's present Mideast polices, saying there is no real debate going on in Washington over the Israel-Palestinian issue.

He said the US road map "creates the illusion of specificity," while leaving the various steps in the plan wide open to interpretations. "It doesn't provide criteria for performance," he said, adding that the interpretation of each step will itself become the focus of negotiations.
According to Ross, the plan "calls for a cease-fire and Palestinian performance, but the illegitimacy of violence is not there."
jpost.com



To: LindyBill who wrote (59760)12/4/2002 12:07:38 AM
From: Karen Lawrence  Read Replies (1) | Respond to of 281500
 
Perception of U.S. and its policies lend to combustible environment

By GREG BARRETT
Gannett News Service
gannettonline.com
CAIRO, Egypt — On my first full day in Cairo, around the time American and Israeli flags burned in unison, I heard the dull thud of a policeman's fist slam into the face of an arrested protester named Ibrahim.

Three hundred Arab protesters were surrounded by an equal number of Egyptian police dressed in black riot gear. An escalating rumble of dissent was aimed directly at President Bush and Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon.

And there were shouts to free Ibrahim, who soon reappeared with a red welt on his face but whose fists nonetheless shot into the air victoriously. He immediately resumed the chorus against Bush and Sharon, then added a verse to include Egyptian President Hosni Mubarak, who is ridiculed as a pet of the West.

The mad chaos of it all was at first intimidating. Yet standing in this bullring of Arab rage and speaking to the people face to face, the angriest rhetoric was somehow diffused, scattered like buckshot, I suspect, by the vastness of its targets — the governments of Israel and America. I was asked in pleading tones, "Please put facts to words."

This was the same day that Fathi Arafat, the brother of Palestinian leader Yasser Arafat, bore into me with an exasperated stare.
“Is America controlling Israel, or is Israel controlling America?" he asked. "Believe me, this is a big question."

Even America's staunchest defenders in Egypt — a moderate Arab nation that has received about $50 billion in U.S. tax dollars since 1975 — scratch their heads. How does Israel warrant America's unabashed loyalty? Why is America willing to share in the assaults directed at Israel?

Sitting in the shade of a Tut tree on the outskirts of Cairo, about a mile from Egypt's largest pyramids, the Muslim wife of a peasant farmer believed it makes perfect sense that America backs Israel and vice versa.

"You come from the same clan," Sabah Sayed Ali said in Arabic. Her tone was neither warm nor hostile, but certain and matter-of-fact.
Few Egyptians seem to know, or care, that Bush is Methodist or that only 1.3 percent of the U.S. adult population is Jewish.

Egyptian intellectuals are far more likely to quote numbers such as the $41.3 million that the pro-Israel lobby has given since 1989 to U.S. federal candidates and political parties and the relatively paltry $297,000 given by Arab or Muslim lobbyists.

Or to quote our politicians — 36 members of Congress are Jewish; none are Muslim — who adopted a resolution of bipartisan support for Israel in May.

Or to quote the Southern Baptist leader who declared in June that the prophet Muhammed was a "demon-possessed pedophile."
Or to quote our president, who called Sharon a "man of peace."



To: LindyBill who wrote (59760)12/4/2002 2:46:28 AM
From: D. Long  Respond to of 281500
 
I was thinking today that the Euro support of Arafat and the PA is direct support of terrorists

Those HAMAS boys are just misunderstood...

216.26.163.62
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EU offers to remove Hamas from terror list


SPECIAL TO WORLD TRIBUNE.COM
Thursday, November 28, 2002
RAMALLAH — The European Union has offered to remove Hamas from a list of organizations deemed as terrorist if the Islamic group suspends suicide missions against Israel.

Palestinian sources said the EU offer was submitted during negotiations with Hamas leaders in the Gaza Strip and Egypt over the last month. The sources said an EU representative held a series of talks with Hamas in an effort to achieve a limited ceasefire over the next few months.

Earlier this month, the EU sponsored talks in Cairo between Hamas and the ruling Fatah movement to discuss a ceasefire in the more than two-year-old war against Israel. The talks included a series of offers from both the EU and Egypt for a suspension of attacks.

An EU negotiator was said to have offered to remove Hamas from the European list of terrorist groups. Hamas's military wing Izzedin Al Kassam was placed on the list earlier this year while the political arm was left out.

Palestinian sources said the Fatah-Hamas dialogue will be renewed next month in Cairo. They said they expect the dialogue to include senior representatives of both movements.

[Canada has placed Hamas and the Islamic Jihad groups on Ottawa's list of terrorist groups. Hamas is already on the list of U.S. State Department terrorist organizations.]

For their part, Hamas leaders have rejected a ceasefire in suicide missions in Israeli cities. They termed such attacks as strategic, saying they would lead to the defeat of Prime Minister Ariel Sharon in elections scheduled for Jan. 28.

Palestinian sources said Fatah and Palestinian Authority officials have urged Hamas to halt attacks inside Israel until at least after the Israeli elections. PA officials have expressed support for Labor Party chairman Amram Mitzna as Israel's next prime minister.

The EU effort has drawn protests from European parliamentarians. The parliamentarians have accused the EU and its commissioner for foreign relations Chris Patten of encouraging corruption and violence in the Palestinian Authority.

The EU provides 10 million euros a month to the PA and members of the European Parliament's foreign relations committee called for a panel to investigate PA corruption. Several members expressed concern that EU money could have been diverted to fund what they termed were Palestinian terrorist attacks. Patten rejected the assertion.