To: Johannes Pilch who wrote (325876 ) 12/5/2002 6:39:48 AM From: jttmab Read Replies (1) | Respond to of 769670 The comparison is quite apt. "Aw shoot" doesn't appear in all dictionaries. Indeed it doesn't appear in mine, and if it appears in yours it does so only because of common use. The words "aw shoot" are substitutes for a harsher set of words. It has now come into its own. And that is why it is found in your dictionary. It came into its own precisely for the same reason words like H_l , or %^$%^$ are coming into theirs. The individual words of "aw shoot", do appear in the dictionary. We haven't created a new word, we have created a different phrase as a substitution for some word. H_l is a new artifact. I recall seeing %^$%^$ [or something similar] in comics as a young child. It's been in usage for at least 4 decades. Indeed, and that is how vast numbers of words come into being. They are deemed inappropriate and so new words are crafted that are better tuned to the circumstances. It is quite valid to say "heck" as opposed to "hell" if the person doing the communicating deems her message will be better received and if in fact her message is better received. "Vast" numbers of words come into being because we have decided a new word needs to replace an inappropriate word? I would say that's hyperbole and unsupportable.It is completely valid for me to say "he told me to go to h_ll!" as opposed to "he told me to go to hell!" It's done. But it's pure assertion that it's completely valid. I don't think I could turn to any section in Fowler's and find it to be valid. I certainly can't claim validity based on it's appearance in a dictionary. Sometimes words that are not "validly" used eventually come into valid use. The spellings of judgment and judgement. Today, both are valid spellings of the word. Earlier in the word's history, only one was considered a valid spelling [I think it was judgement]. And at that time the other spelling of the word was considered invalid, though it may have been commonly used. In the same sense, h**l may be commonly used but that does not make it "completely valid". There are a number of variants, h__l; he_l; h**l that perhaps preclude any one to be commonly used, let alone completely valid. I'll contend that any one of those variants is in rare usage compared to the word hell. Usage has a role in "validity". I might say that Ya caint do that. , which is invalid in the sense that it is improper English. On the other hand, if I write a novel and write Jeb said to Joshua, "Ya caint do that". It has a literary validity. But to say that the phrase "Ya caint do that" is a completely valid way of communicating is not correct.It does not communicate exactly the same word, else you would not have issued the criticism. There is obviously some difference here, perhaps albeit a subtle one. I issue the criticism, precisely because it does communicate the exact same word with the same intent within it's context.jttmab: If I were to use, *&()(&(£! as a substitute for a word, that's different as well. While it does not appear in a dictionary, it indicates that there is some word or words that I might like to use, but are not appropriate. But you can't tell in any way which word[s] were inappropriate....Pilch: This is quite irrelevant. It does not matter whether the hostile word is clearly and overtly suggested or more thouroughly veiled. The fact of relevance here is antipathy and sensibility. We are allowed to communicate degrees of antipathy and sensibility however we wish, and it is quite appropriate and not a bit hypocritical that we do so. I wholly disagree. If, I should write...You are a [insert racial slur] and you are offended; I fully expect that you would be equally offended if I write You are a [insert rac**l slur] . The intent and words selected are quite obvious."Aw Shoot!" is only less harsh to you because you have been taught to accept it as less harsh- because indeed it is, just as is "h**l" instead of "hell." Taught implies an active role, learned would be a better choice of words. I doubt that as a general rule that children are told by their parents Don't use "shit", use "sheeeeet" or "aw shooot" People learn passively based on reactions.Someone began the practice of saying "aw shoot!" long ago and no doubt it was a lot harsher than it is currently. Really? When did the phrase of "aw shoot" first arise? Was it before or after the word "shit". Did the phrase "Aw shoot" come into being during archery matches in the 17th century.I submit to you that should people increasingly use "h**l" instead of hell, the word would be treated similarly and it would eventually enter the dictionary. Highly unlikely. It appears to me that words in the dictionary have both a written use and a spoken use. With minor exceptions being abbreviations. The word "h**l" has no spoken usage. For the same reason, no variation of %^$%^$ has ever found it's way into any dictionary even after at least 4 decades of common usage. It's not pronouncable on it's own.This is a fallacy of course. It shows the elasticity of the word "hell." In one case the word is something of a vulgarity, and in another the word is used eschatologically to refer to an actual place. We ought not confuse the two terms, though they appear to be the same. Only because you fail to grasp the entirety of the point. The point goes well beyond mere elasticity or usage of the word. "Hell" is frequently used within literature, as is with no attempt to soften it. It's a word frequently used by persons thought to be of high moral principles and having an above average level of decorum. The point illustrates that the word "hell" as a stand alone word has no inherent offensive quality. If I made a sign up with the single word "Hell" and stuck it on my front lawn, I might expect reactions of puzzlement, perhaps laughter, but I would not [or have any reason] to expect someone would be offended. On the other hand if I selected a single word which was a racial slur and put it on a sign on my front lawn, I have a pretty good basis for expecting persons to be offended, even though I could construct a sentence with it that was not offensive, e.g., [Insert racial slur] is a racial slur and offends me. The only determining factor for being offended by the word "hell" is it's usage and the intent. I can pick any one of three phrases. G* t* hell; Go to h**l; or Go to hell. . There is no substantive difference on the meaning or the intent.I think your criticisms are flawed. You've convinced me that my criticisms are sound and supportable. Not something I firmly believed before this dialogue started. jttmab