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Politics : Formerly About Applied Materials -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?

To: skinowski who wrote (66903)	12/5/2002 11:15:46 AM
From: michael97123	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 70976

Problem with the left is that if we attack iraq they squeal. If we enter into a cyncical deal with saddam to prevent war they squeal. If we become isolationist they squeal or internationalist they squeal. Whatever we do is wrong and they have a long laundry list of reasons for each. Yes i should be polite, but those arguments with those eurofolks or the domestic breed are useless. And of course add to that the love they all feel for clinton and the hatred for bush. They are for one-party dem socialist state. So if clinton followed this exact policy they would support it. They certainly liked it when US attacked serbia. mike

To: skinowski who wrote (66903)	12/6/2002 9:26:14 AM
From: zonder	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 70976

reflects the thinking of the enlightened Middle East and Europe. We have to keep talking. Thanks for that. I would like to think that is true. I agree that we have to keep talking. It is not with talking to like-minded people that we will come to an understanding of how to solve this conflict of civilizations going forward. Their history is full of violence, provocations, excessively clever politicking… Both Europeans and ME countries have a long history (When visiting a historic building in Philedelphia, I was amazed to see it was slightly younger than my grandmother) "history" Europe and ME is thousands of years old. I am not suggesting that this makes us wise or something, but it does present us with quite a lot of different sides to various situations, mistakes galore, and lessons learned. This could explain why we can see the shades of grey with ease, in contrast to the North American perception in black & white. (As a side note - I would be interested to talk on the topic of whether or not the US ever faced its mistakes. I am not sure but then again, I am not that familiar with American history. For example, France has formally apologized to Algeria for various atrocities before and during their war of independence. Is there such an awareness (if not open admission of a mistake and apology) re slavery of Africans and near-extermination of native Indians? ) They look at us and think “Good… Let those gringos have a taste of the real world… Let’s see them make fools of themselves, trying to deal with this “real” reality, with which we had to deal for centuries…” Almost. You are right that there is a sense of "Good. Let them have some of the hell we have been going through for so long". The bitterness comes from the fact that Americans have been leading a sheltered life while in most of the rest of the world, people have been dying and suffering. While you could attribute this bitterness to jealousy, in fact it has a lot to do with the feeling that their suffering was caused for the most part by the meddling of the US in the affairs of other countries. Take Iraq - It is no secret that they hate the US. Part of that hate can be explained away by state propaganda, but there is also the fact that those people have been living for a decade now without basic medicine and even the chlorine necessary to disinfect their water supply, because of the sanctions. Now I realize that their own government is responsible for those sanctions but it is the perception that counts in sentiments of the man on the street. Take Chile, Vietnam, or any other country that in some way had US intervention - Their perception is that they have always been pushed around by the US who was after its own economic/political interests (Naturally. I am not criticizing but trying to give their point of view.) and they were killed off by the thousands while US citizens never missed a night's sleep. After 9/11, there was absolute solidarity in Europe but elsewhere there was a smug sense of "For once, THEY get to suffer!". Perhaps, they are confusing centuries of their own stupidity and misfortune for “reality”? I could not agree more with you. It is definitely ME countries' own stupidity that they "suffered". However, it IS their reality and has been for a long time. It is human nature that they are going to blame "others". If you walk in a dark alley at night and get raped, who are you going to blame the next day (and for the rest of your life)? Yourself for not carrying and using a gun or the thugs who jumped you? Perhaps, “reality” is what we have, being strong, proud, wealthy, and with an air of invulnerability? That is your reality but that is not an option for an Afghan born in a cave (or something). I feel Americans blissfully ignored how their strength and wealth was achieved (i.e. at what cost to themselves and others) prior to 9/11 but thanks to the interest in the world after the incident, there is growing awareness about US foreign affairs and very soon we may see a point where the US public will demand explications for their state's actions, such as support for that dictator with the bad wig in Pakistan.