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Politics : Foreign Affairs Discussion Group -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?

To: TH who wrote (60761)	12/9/2002 3:12:44 PM
From: zonder	Respond to of 281500

and no my company is not public so you can't short it -g- Darn! How did you guess? <ggg>

To: TH who wrote (60761)	12/9/2002 4:21:36 PM
From: Nadine Carroll	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 281500

recently had to sit through a dinner with one of the higher exec's at the company I work for. He insisted that 9/11 had nothing to do with our support of Israel If you've been listening to OBL's grievances over the years, you know that Israel is very much of a Johnny-come-lately among his causes. The original one highlighted in his 1998 declaration of war was "infidel troops on the sacred soil of Arabia". Of course, those troops are not sitting there because of Israel, but because of Saddam, and you'd have a tough time arguing that Saddam invaded Kuwait due to Israel, or that we are protecting the oil fields of Saudi Arabia due to Israel. Of course, OBL also complains of La Reconquista, the Mongol sack of Baghdad, and support for the independence of East Timor! What was the US position on the sack of Baghdad in 1258? Islamism is born out of the failures of the Arab regimes to modernize or get working ideologies; pan-Arabism, socialism, and Nasserism have been tried and have failed. Now maybe you can argue that the Arab regimes would not be such psychological messes if they weren't so humiliated by the existence of Israel, but it's not an obvious argument. Israel is a sharp stick in their ribs, but the contrast between American and European prosperity and Arab stagnation would be obvious even without it. One definitely gets the feeling if Israel didn't exist, they would have had to invent it, or find some other excuse.

To: TH who wrote (60761)	12/9/2002 8:53:39 PM
From: Brumar89	Read Replies (3) \| Respond to of 281500

It is wrong to say our support of Israel has NOTHING to do with 9/11. it's an obvious fact that most Muslims are upset about this to some extent or other. But it's equally wrong to say it is THE reason it happened. Osama issued a fatwa (I posted it here long ago) laying out his organizations reasons for declaring war on America. The Palestine conflict was third on his list behind the sanctions against Iraq (second) and the presence of American troops in Saudi Arabia (first). This last was the complaint he sounded most passionate about. Our presence is considered a defilement of holy territory. I would submit that in the absence of an Israeli-Palestine conflict (or even in the absence of an Israeli state at all) the middle East would not be a lot different than it is. The Shah of Iran would still have been overthrown by Khomeini, who would still have branded us the Great Satan since we had supported the Shan. The Soviet Union would still have invaded Afghanistan. And we would still have armed the Afghans and other Muslims who resisted Soviet domination. Saddam Hussein would still have invaded his neighbors - first Iran and then Kuwait - and would still be intent on developing WMD's to enable him to reach his goal of establishing a mighty empire on the Persian Gulf. We would still intervene to prevent this from happening and would still station our troops in the region. The region is of great geo-political importance due to the high percentage of the world's oil reserves located there. Some Muslims, including Osama bin Ladin, would still be angry at us over our presence and intervention in the region and would view a war with us as a means to unite the Muslim world behind them. Get the picture. Without an Israel in the middle East, Muslims would not have that to hold against us. Nevertheless, things would be pretty much the same. If any think I'm wrong, just tell me which of the things I outlined (Iranian revolution, Afghan war, Iran-Iraq war, Gulf War, etc.) wouldn't have happened but for Israel.