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Politics : Foreign Affairs Discussion Group -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?

To: Bilow who wrote (61354)	12/12/2002 3:05:45 PM
From: JohnM	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 281500

Well, and hello to you, Carl. I agree on the business with zonder. Zonder said very clearly it was "signing," nor has zonder shown any absence of wisdom about American politics. We just saw the usual pile on the thread goes through every once in a while. And we all knew the political wisdom was that it had been signed but not submitted to the Senate for ratification because the Clinton folk knew it would not be done. That's worth two or three posts, at best. I should add to my post that I've been there, so I know how trying it can be. I thought zonder handled it extremely well.

To: Bilow who wrote (61354)	12/12/2002 7:58:42 PM
From: Ilaine	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 281500

Carl - the shorthand expression "the US signed such and such a treaty" doesn't mean that an Ambassador affixed a non-binding signature to it. It's a term of art. When used without disclaimer, it means that the US is a signatory to the treaty. I have already explained that this means that the US is actually a party to the treaty. If Carl Bilow signed a treaty, we wouldn't say "the US signed the treaty," even though you are a US citizen. An ambassador can't bind the US anymore than you can. Ambassadors probably wear fancier clothes to work than you do and get to ride around in limousines at the taxpayers' expense, but at the end of the day, their signature on a treaty doesn't mean the US signed the treaty, any more than your signature would. Saying "the US signed the treaty" is playing very fast and loose with the truth, and exhibits a reckless or conscious disregard for the meaning of terms which have precise meanings.