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Politics : Foreign Affairs Discussion Group -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?

To: Hawkmoon who wrote (62769)	12/22/2002 1:45:39 PM
From: Karen Lawrence	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 281500

I found something I was going to post to you. But FIRST. What are you talking about? How do you go from my statement to you "haven't seen me inviting them into this country"? What? Arabs are NOT coming into this country because of the treatment they are getting here. School apps are down. Folks who complied with INS to sign up were jailed in LA. This is hardly a country they'd want to come to. Do you want to go to Saudi Arabia? As for meeting economic needs...my goodness. Right here in the US, we have increasing poverty, we have increasing numbers of folks without jobs without medical coverage without any failsafe plan. The public schools suck. We have problems right here at home we with which we are failing. AS far as giving money to other countries, corrupt warlords, that's not what I would do either. Where do you get this malarkey? In fact, I say stop supporting these countries, and the biggest money pit is Israel. I'm against giving away taxpayer dollars while there are folks in this country going hungry, going without medical care, going without shelter or clothing or education.

To: Hawkmoon who wrote (62769)	12/22/2002 1:49:07 PM
From: Karen Lawrence	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 281500

Oh, and ps, if you want to come to bogus conclusions about what I think, you might add...is this what you mean, and the answer will be NO. As far as an alternative solution...WTF, the UN inspectors in Iraq IS the alternative. They are helping keep the peace. Peace is what I want. No nukes falling from the sky, no stirring up a hornet's nest, no war. Í'm opposed to Bush's course towards war. I believe what the UN is doing is great. Speaking for you, you want war, killings, more starving people, more terrorist retaliation, more hatred coming to the US more power for the oil companies.

To: Hawkmoon who wrote (62769)	12/22/2002 1:50:57 PM
From: Karen Lawrence	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 281500

As to the Bushemite position, it is not substantiated take a look at this excerpt...see, I am right The overarching claim, that Iraq possesses weapons of mass destruction, may have the weight of probability behind it, but it has yet to be backed by proof shared with the public...Not everything is nailed down in the U.S. case against Iraq sfgate.com CALVIN WOODWARD, Associated Press Writer Sunday, December 22, 2002 (12-22) 10:08 PST WASHINGTON (AP) -- Today's claims about Iraq could become tomorrow's call to arms. But not all the statements coming from the Bush administration have been supported by evidence, and some that haven't are central to the question of whether Americans should go to war. The overarching claim, that Iraq possesses weapons of mass destruction, may have the weight of probability behind it, but it has yet to be backed by proof shared with the public. Behind that is a cast of supporting allegations, some veering off into murky territory. Human rights monitors, for example, say it is news to them that when Iraqi soldiers captured by Iran in the 1980s returned from that war, President Saddam Hussein ordered their ears cut off, as the Pentagon stated. When President Bush flatly asserted about Saddam, "He possesses the most deadly arms of our age," he seemed to ignore the consensus that Iraq does not have the weapons of Armageddon -- nuclear ones -- however actively it may be pursuing them. A decade ago, Americans preparing for their first war against Iraq were shocked when a Kuwaiti girl, testifying to Congress, said she saw Iraqi soldiers occupying her country take infants off of their respirators and let them die. The story quickly became part of the first President Bush's campaign to win public support for the war. "Babies pulled from incubators and scattered like firewood across the floor," he said. Only after the war did the story fall apart and the witness' true identity -- the daughter of Kuwait's ambassador to the United States -- become known. With that in mind, Joe Stork, a Middle East monitor for Human Rights Watch, urged the government not to stretch its claims of Iraqi atrocities, because doing so can undermine confidence in carefully documented reports of genuine abuses. "I do think the human rights abuses in Iraq are systematic and serious," said Stork, whose group investigates mistreatment of citizens worldwide. "This is one of the worst governments in the world. There is absolutely no need to exaggerate." On the crucial question of Iraqi weapons, knowledge of Saddam's past chemical and biological stockpiles, combined with shadowy actions since the world last had a good look around there, leads many analysts to think he is capable of causing huge destruction now. But U.N. inspectors are still inspecting, some suspicions remain suppositions, and U.S. allies are waiting for a clincher. "So far the inspectors have found nothing, and the U.S. has produced nothing," said Phyllis Bennis, a Middle East analyst for the liberal Institute for Policy Studies in Washington. "I'm not prepared to support a war on spec." Other analysts put more weight behind U.S. allegations that Iraq has regenerated its biological weapons capabilities and may have chemical weapons, which it used in the past, as well. But the indictment offered by Washington last week, accusing Iraq of being in "material breach" of the U.N. disarmament resolution, rests not on what has been uncovered in the inspections but, in large measure, on what was omitted in Iraq's report on its weapons inventory. Among the administration's points: * Satellites have picked up on construction of an unknown nature at previously bombed weapons sites. * Iraq has offered no proof that it has destroyed a long list of highly destructive weapons it acknowledged having had before. * Iraq has imported suspicious materials that could advance its attempts to develop nuclear weapons. On other fronts, U.S. officials have made several charges without offering support in the past few weeks. For example, intelligence officials said Iraq has an audacious plan to destroy its own food sources, power supplies and oil fields, and blame America for it, if war against U.S. forces does not go well -- all for the purpose of turning international opinion against Washington. They refused to describe their evidence. Government sources also said, in leaked comments, that Islamic extremists affiliated with the al-Qaida network might have taken possession of the deadly chemical weapon VX while in Iraq. The claim weakened under examination. U.S. officials have tried before to establish a connection between Iraq and the terrorist network that attacked America. In this case, Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld would not talk about any Iraq-terrorist VX transaction but said: "I have seen other information over a period of time that suggests that could be happening." But a variety of counterterror and defense officials said later they had no credible evidence that Iraq supplied the nerve agent to al-Qaida operatives. Questions also have been raised about claims made in U.S. radio broadcasts to Iraqi soldiers and citizens. One was the ear-cutting claim. Referring to the Iran-Iraq war, one new broadcast proclaims: "When the Iraqi soldiers that were taken prisoner were returned, Saddam ordered their ears cut off as punishment for being captured." Pentagon officials would not verify the claim. In fact, a 1994 investigation by the U.N. Human Rights Commission took note of reports that doctors were carrying out a decree that military deserters and evaders have their ears amputated. The report did not find that loyal Iraqi troops who had been captured in the Iran war years earlier were similarly punished. "That's quite a different assertion," said Stork. "I frankly doubt if it's true." · Printer-friendly version · Email this article to a friend ACCOUNTANT SF Financial Distr 1 year tax exp -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- FILE CLERK - FT Busy Medical Offic -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ASSOCIATE MANAGER/ CUSTOMER Great Benefits! Anthony Real Estate -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- PURCHASING The California Cul Receiving Asst -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- HUMAN RESOURCES Org. Dev. Consult -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- LANDSCAPE CONSTRUCTION Workers -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- RETAIL Store Manager Walnut Creek MAXSTUDIO.COM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- EDUCATION California Culinar Chef Instructor -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- RETAIL REGIONAL MANAGER T 3 years Exp Tuesday Morning -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ACCOUNTING Tax Preparer Marina District -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- RESTAURANT Team for 5 Star fl Live in Benefit -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- SALES SENIOR SALES MGR Lg Comm'l Prop -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- LOAN AGENTS W/Health Insu -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- SECURITY Museum Guard FT $19.23 an hour City & County of SF -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- SOCIAL SERVICES Family Se Head Start Childre -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- TEACHER Pos. open this Jan Special Ed -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- DENTAL SALES 2 years exp Sultan Chemists -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ADMINISTRATIVE Admin Asst: Facilities & Opera Asian Art Museum -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- SALES EOE SALOMON Financial Consulta Smith Barney -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- WAREHOUSE SHIPPING/RECEIVING Part Time Tosoh Medics, Inc. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- DESIGNER DRAFTER AA Deg CAD Mech C & H Sugar Company -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- MANAGEMENT Payroll Director Southern Oregon -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- LENDER San Rafael Mort B Many Positions! -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- CONSTRUCTION Senior Project Mgr Southern CA -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- SECURITY CSS S/O to $12/sta Vac &Bonus -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- About Top Jobs View All Top Jobs 12/08/2002 - 12,000 pages of Iraqi denial. 09/27/2002 - U.S. is on the edge of available evidence, maybe over, in making the case for Iraq war . 09/12/2002 - Text of Bush speech . more related articles...

To: Hawkmoon who wrote (62769)	12/22/2002 3:46:52 PM
From: Maurice Winn	Read Replies (2) \| Respond to of 281500

<Sure worked with the North Koreans, didn't it??? Now they are saying that possibly Iran actually provided the materials for this nuclear warhead they claim to have.. And we find out that Pakistan was offering Saddam nuclear technology back in 1990.. > We shouldn't be surprised that North Korea has nukes. If I was Jiang Zemin or Hu Jintao, or Zhu Rongji [with Belgrade embassy bombed while supporting the front line of the Serbs against Moslem mayhem, and with the USA rattling sabres and nukes in USS Enterprise sailing between Formosa and China and flying spy aircraft right down the border, and with King George II's acolyte Condoleezza Rice talking 'strategic competitor' confrontation lingo and being surrounded by USA military bases in South Korea, Japan's mainland, Okinawa, Palau and once upon a time in Vietnam with the USA having waged war in Vietnam and Korea to establish major bases there and hold back communism, which is alive and well right there in the USA in sunny California no less], I would do as the USA does and arm my client states with sufficient artillery that a serious deterrent to the florid state of mind of the USA political and military wackoes and dominance hierarchy would be dissuaded from a too-adventurous belligerency. I would be quite happy to ensure that North Korea had a nuke or three. So that, if push comes to shove, which the USA is prone to do [shove], there would be some shock if a demonstration nuke went off near Seoul to inhibit further attacks by the USA. I would also be happy for North Korea to have rockets which could reach Tokyo and Okinawa, just in case. The USA is going to one day learn that democracy is a good idea and that freedom is also a good idea, and that free and voluntary interchange of goods and services is life-improving. Human rights are also fine, and the old-fashioned idea of a universal egalitarianism of humans is a better way of running a railroad than one of chimpanzee DNA-based alpha male tribal hierarchies based on territorial conquest and found wealth. Not just for Americans, who are quite a superior species on the planet, but for we, the sheople, too. Our great and estimable hero, Uncle Al KBE, is on the case. He recognizes that he isn't running a currency just for J6P frequenting Wal-Mart in Preoria. He's running a global currency which is keeping the world's financial wheels turning and on the tracks. Similarly, the USA would do well to redesign the UN into a democratic institution suitable to act as globocop [not globo busy-body wealth redistributor] and global commons protector; oceans, air, radio spectrum, space, rivers and the like - perhaps disease control, cyberspace rules, patents. Too many people are still stuck in the narrow little nationalistic ideas of the 19th century. The USA is still battling itself over whether the melanin-rich are normal humans or not. So is NZ. Amazing in the 21st century, but good things take time. Even CDMA is still not used in every country and cyberspace is still trapped in fibre and wire, with only minor leakage into 3D freedom. In case somebody missed the point, UN Rulz OK! [Not the old ones, the proposed new ones]. The best way for the USA to protect itself is to do for the UN what the famous founding fathers did for the USA. Copying Warlord Dostum or Saddam Hussein [who also uses a policy of assassination to counter belligerent opposition] in a dog eat dog world of dominance hierarchy isn't going to create peace, light, harmony, happiness, prosperity, longevity, love and contentment. I have spake! We the Sheeple, Mqurice PS: 2003 is Year of the Sheep, so perhaps it's auspicious for We the Sheeple. Maybe China will be the harbinger of said freedom, peace, light, harmony .... etc in a surprisingly counterintuitive geomagnetic flip of polarity, and the USA will be an atavistic reactionary opponent of freedom, liberty, life and the right to pursuit of happiness. You are either with us or against us. It is not wise to be against 6 billion sheep, even if you do have a nuke or three, a large GDP, and can fill the sky with Predators. Predators don't deliver love. Confucianism is much older than the USA - maybe China will once again lead civilization. Merry Christmas = peace on earth, good will to all and universality of humanity.