Hi lurqer -
When I mentioned "excessive bashing of Islam by people who do not have an understanding of this religion and its customs", I was not talking about you, but others I see on other threads saying things like "Islam is a disease that must be eradicated" etc.
Re sunnah/hadith - The impression I got from my time in the ME is that a statement like "It is impossible to understand the Quran without the sunnah" is not very common. It is true that Sharia has for the most part been put together from allegedly what Mohammad said and done during his lifetime. Actually, I think of sharia like the Inquisition, and it is a relatively new phenomena. In the Ottoman Empire, for example, where the Padishah was in fact the head of all Muslims (like the Pope, if you will), there was no sharia.
Is it not now part of the law of some Middle Eastern countries, that the penalty for apostasy (abandonment of faith) is death? Is it not part of the Sharia that a Muslim who kills an apostate need pay no indemnity and perform no expiatory acts?
I have been in some countries where there was no such law, but I cannot answer your question as to whether or not there are indeed some countries who have these laws.
I can, however, say that the Quran is very clear about never trying to convert anyone to Islam by force.
Honestly, I have seen only one Muslim who had converted to Christianity (nobody tried to kill him). The practice is not very common, apparently. People who are born Muslims and do not believe, just stay non-believers.
I have been in Muslim countries, where there are missionary schools, and even Jehovah's Witnesses going from door to door. I saw ads in papers saying "Do you know the teachings of the Bible and Jesus Christ? We will send you a free Bible..." etc. Now, if there was no drastic change in the last couple of years that I have been living in Europe, I can safely say that it is a gross generalization to say that "The penalty for even attempting to convert a Muslim to another religion is quite specific - death".
Egypt is considered to be a more moderate and modern Middle Eastern state.
Hm. I would say Turkey is more modern and also democratic (imperfect yet, but at least they are trying).
I am not familiar with the Egyptian examples of converts tortured, imprisoned, etc that you have given. However, re a Muslim marrying a Christian, I know so many Muslims who formally married Christians (one in a church), with the blessing of their parents and friends, that I can confidently say that such a practice is not common. The only problems I saw were when Muslims married Jews and then the problem came from the Jewish families. A Muslim girlfriend married a Cohen a couple of years ago, and the guy's family was shattered. As I understand, the Cohen were one of the families in close service of Prophet Moses this guy's parents were not happy campers about him marrying a Muslim girl. They finally agreed to the marriage when he attempted suicide, though.
Muslims who convert to other religions suffer discrimination both socially and on the part of authorities
Now, I cannot say anything about the social suffering. That probably takes place. Come to think about it, I wasn't very popular in school when I declared I did not believe in religion, God, etc <g> So I guess a certain alienation does take place when one deviates from accepted norms.
As a last word, all sorts of information can be found on the net, and frankly, I have not looked into specific examples of what has happened to particular cases of people converting from Islam, but I can give you examples from people I know.
Also, to put things in context, do consider that there are quite a few strange people giving strange sermons on Christianity. Take a look at this:
The only way we can win the war on terrorism, folks, is to destroy the terror of liberalism and evil that exists inside this Christian Nation. It starts with the children. It starts at home. It might be something as simple as organizing a Harry Potter book burning, or placing your child's hands on a hot stove if you catch them masturbating. It could even be a simple gesture, like shipping your 11-year-old son off to military school, or cutting off part of your daughter's ear for listening to N'Sync.
landoverbaptist.org
Do you see what I mean? It is inevitable that it is this sort of strange sermons that are widely reported in western media these days. I suggest you keep in mind that there are hundreds of thousands of sermons in mosques every day and if a few are warmongering, the rest probably are not.
I have no desire to “bash” Islam, but I don’t believe a whitewash serves any useful purpose
That was not my purpose. I believe that the extreme events get widely reported in the media and these form an opinion, that the Muslim world is like that, always and everywhere. My experience suggests that is not correct. That's all.
I believe the Muslims have a serious problem in trying to accommodate the modern world.
The ultra religious certainly do. It is no secret that religion and science do not mix well - once people start asking questions, the conversation invariably leads to whether or not even God exists, and in clear absence of evidence, it is not hard to guess which way scientific minds will generally answer this question.
I only seek to better understand them in an attempt to minimize friction while they find their way. Only they can do this. Any attempt to force an outside solution (e.g. A MacArthur like occupation of Iraq), will fail and likely IMO be a disaster.
That is an admirable attitude, and very very rare these days, I find. I agree that they need to find their way themselves, just like the Europeans ditched the Inquisition some centuries ago.
I sincerely suggest you take a look at the Quran, flick through the pages, and see for yourself how it is far more peaceful than you would expect. As Christianity was once used to support the Inquisition and the witch hunts - One line in the Bible that says "Suffer not a witch to live" (Exodus 22:18), and tens of thousands of people, mostly women, were killed because they had a mole on their faces or they had a cat. Similarly, there is one line in the Quran that says "Tell your women to cover their jewels when they go out of the home", which, if you look at it in context (women were being attacked by thieves) was meant as an advice to cover valuable belongings, and now millions of women cover themselves head to toe, because some fools feel a women's 'jewellery' is also her eyes, her hair, etc.
I think Muslims will make their own revolution. Sometime in the near future, I hope. All we can do it try to help the moderates and revolutionaries. Invading their countries and forcing "regime change" probably will not go down well and will cause a backlash. |
