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To: MSI who wrote (7910)	1/6/2003 11:26:24 AM
From: MulhollandDrive	Read Replies (2) \| Respond to of 306849

>>I recently read someone who lived through the 30's, who said in spite of extreme poverty, much worse than today, there was a fundamental difference, greater hope and optimism, and sense of cooperation. Unlike today in the poorer regions where people feel hopeless, no economic mobility. I don't know if that's a result of the all-powerful central gov't taking over and contaminating sense of community, or policies of globalism over domestic health, or what. But it seems real<< it is real. i have spoken to people who lived in that era too...but you must also remember there was not the social "safety" net in place that we have today....and certainly the rate of taxation was almost non-existent, especially when it comes to the multiple layers upon layers of taxable "events" in their lives...so programs like the "new deal" had promise, simply because of the nascent level of taxation that existed and the idea of everyone "pitching in" a bit more to help the poor seemed like i good idea... who at the time had any idea that the wealth transfer system would balloon to current levels.... you may disagree, but i think much of the hope and optimism and cooperation stemmed from a sincere belief that everyone was willing to do their part to put the country back on their feet.. now the expectation is the govt should do it BECAUSE "i already paid" for that...

To: MSI who wrote (7910)	1/6/2003 12:16:04 PM
From: GraceZ	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 306849

I recently read someone who lived through the 30's, who said in spite of extreme poverty, much worse than today, there was a fundamental difference, greater hope and optimism, and sense of cooperation. Formerly poor people tend to romanticize their impoverished past when in actuality the only reason they were able to escape poverty was because they wanted something much better for themselves and their family. Mostly they look back with a sense of longing because they find out first hand that having money doesn't automatically make them happier. I came from a poor, but intellectual, family and I know a lot of people who came from such families. Some of these people I've wound up hiring in my business so I know this condition still exists. People have more class mobility now than they ever did. How else could my husband hire guys straight from Mexico without very good English skills, little education, who learn on the job and wind up buying houses? These guys start out at 20k and are making 40k within 2 years of landing here. By California standards 40k isn't much but in Baltimore it's more than enough to buy a house in a decent neighborhood. If you talk to someone in what is officially designated as victim class about the ability to do this they assume there's some sort of scam going on. One persistent ghetto rumor I've heard repeated to me over and over is that the government secretly helps Koreans buy stores in poor neighborhoods. It's unbelievably sad that people believe these kinds of things, that somehow the American dream isn't available to them. The most important thing a person needs to do to escape poverty is to just say no to government handouts (part of saying no to drugs) that are conditional on them staying poor. My 80-yr old uncle remembers as a kid walking around Central Park in NY at night w/o feeling threatened in the least, and the poorer sections visiting relatives crammed 8 to an apt, but people intellectually alive, happy in spite of it. Things are much different now, and it isn't strictly economic. Most of the crime is committed by a small percentage of the population. Even in a city like mine where the crime rate is high, it's the same people over and over. The increase comes from the widespread use of drugs, a habit which needs to be supported with constant criminal activity. Then there is the vast amount of profit that comes from selling drugs and just as crime in the cities was especially high during prohibition, it is high with all the illegal drug traffic. The crime rate dropped considerably when the economy was strong and only now is rising again. Also, I see TV as having caused a great deal of the loss of literacy, the decline in intellectual pursuit, just simply because it's difficult to read in a house where the TV blares non-stop. You see this even in middle class homes. It's not uncommon to meet a college educated person who can't write coherently, whose reading comprehension is poor. Apparently you don't need to be able to read or write coherently to graduate from college anymore. There is also a great deal of anti-intellectual sentiment. No big surprise in a country where the national heroes are Hollywood actors and sports figures, while the national past time seems to be shopping.