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To: pezz who wrote (27048)	1/7/2003 2:38:20 PM
From: Maurice Winn	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 74559

<But we all live here....Who they gonna identify with? ..Since you haven't said we don't need a government and it needs money to run it seems we should all pay what we can.> Should Saddam's people identify with him? How about Stalin's? Hitler's? What about the melanin-rich in the south, right there in a freedom-loving democracy, voting for them to stay second class citizens? Should Democrats identify with King George II? Should foaming at the mouth Republicans have identified with Bill Clinton? Identifying with the government isn't as easy as that. Should one identify with the constitution? Or the holistic psychic ambience? Pezz, this is a fascinating argument which I have been working on for decades and am still unresolved. It's a bit like the circular definition of money as time and time as miles. What is identity? We definitely are part of our country, and world. We are defined by our country and our country is defined by us. But we are two different entities, self and country, even though we aren't. It's the old tribal scene writ large. We are the tribe, but we are individuals, but we aren't. It's a question of degree. I've ended up, so far, in the libertarianz.org.nz camp. Having been in the socialist camp in my young days, before I realized how suffocating and destructive governments can be when overblown. I am now an ambivalent tax payer. I don't want government to go away, because we need it. But I don't like the horrors they perpetrate. So I have to cut off their funds. Mqurice

To: pezz who wrote (27048)	1/7/2003 2:49:01 PM
From: LLCF	Respond to of 74559

<But we all live here....Who they gonna identify with? > Friends and neighbors? <Since you haven't said we don't need a government and it needs money to run it seems we should all pay what we can.> We simply disagree... I think we should 'pay what we can' to the federal government at all. <Give to all the charities you want but since you are accepting what the government offers you auta help pay.> We clearly differ on what 'government offers' means, is worth, and even it's relevence to peoples lives. <Average folk get much more for their money from the government than successful Americans who pay their own way. I don't buy the little guy always gets screwed routine. The opportunities are for the average joe. I wuz as poor as any of your pals.> Me too... I still absolutely disagree with your assertion that average folk are positioned better under our system. <I only ask for honest give and take > I'm being brutally honest with you. <Well if you think that way you make it so by default.> No, it's an observation based on my lifetime of experience. <Acting as a a unit millions of Americans can and do make a difference.> Again we clearly disagree, and I see little point in arguing since the lines are so clearly marked. I believe the exact opposite of you... < You are living here thus I find it hard not to believe that it is at least part of your world.> Of course... I used the off the cuff 90-10. As for living 'here'.... reminds me of that T-shirt with the Galaxy and 'you are here' arrow. <You're here! You had better make the best of it.It's burying your head in the sand if you think it can't be worse. Aprox six billion people can attest to that.> But I'm "here" too! And 'here', and 'here'... get it? <But I understand you more than you think as I have participated in this debate from your side of the fence when a much younger man.> We understand what we understand, I don't mean to 'judge' what you think, only question it... and disagree with it. As for changing opinions as one gets older... those are choices which you make... my experience leads me to just the opposite... having been on yourside. "It is not our abilities that create our reality, it is our choices"- Dumbledore DAK