SI
SI
discoversearch

We've detected that you're using an ad content blocking browser plug-in or feature. Ads provide a critical source of revenue to the continued operation of Silicon Investor.  We ask that you disable ad blocking while on Silicon Investor in the best interests of our community.  If you are not using an ad blocker but are still receiving this message, make sure your browser's tracking protection is set to the 'standard' level.
Politics : PRESIDENT GEORGE W. BUSH -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?


To: ManyMoose who wrote (344924)1/19/2003 4:07:10 PM
From: CYBERKEN  Read Replies (1) | Respond to of 769670
 
What's really damaged is the protestors these days. The public, having seen the damage the stone-headed left did to America in the Vietnam era, followed by the impeachment fix of 1999, and the fabrication of 1 to 2 million Gore votes in 2000, now looks at the kooky left, shakes their heads and says, "There they go, again.".

As a result, the chances of seeing another Democrat in the White House anytime in the next 20 years are fast approaching ZERO.

Nice to see them doing it to themselves. As Rush says, the left is far more fun to watch (and laugh at) when they are OUT OF POWER. Personally, I'm enjoying the HELL out of the spectacle...



To: ManyMoose who wrote (344924)1/19/2003 4:12:43 PM
From: TigerPaw  Read Replies (2) | Respond to of 769670
 
This country is a republic, and the place for political action is the ballot box.

It doesn't do any good to put your vote in a ballot box if they aren't going to count them.

TP



To: ManyMoose who wrote (344924)1/19/2003 4:17:25 PM
From: Skywatcher  Read Replies (2) | Respond to of 769670
 
What a bunch of crap....PROTESTS ARE DEMOCRACY BUB>
Hundreds of Thousands of Americans March Against War
By Reuters

Filed at 5:02 p.m. ET

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - Hundreds of thousands of Americans opposed to waging war in Iraq rallied
on Saturday in several cities demanding the White House back down and give U.N. weapons inspectors a
chance.

Thousands marched on Washington and San Francisco and at smaller protests in Chicago and Tampa,
Florida, in what organizers said was the largest showing of U.S. anti-war sentiment since President Bush
started making his case for attacking Baghdad last year.

In San Francisco, a group of nude women demanded that the Bush Administration restrain what they
called its ``naked aggression'' toward Iraq. In Washington, one placard read ``Regime Change Starts At
Home.''

``The path this administration is on is wrong and we object. It is an immoral war they are planning and
we must not be silenced,'' said U.S. actress Jessica Lange, addressing a huge crowd on the national Mall
in the center of Washington.

``All this talk of war, all this rhetoric has been an excellent cover, an excellent camouflage, to turn back
the clock on civil rights, on woman's rights, on social justice and on environmental policies,'' she said.

Protesters arrived by bus from California, Colorado, Maine Minnesota and other states and gathered on
the Mall in 20 degree F (minus 6 Celsius) temperatures. Many were middle aged and said they had also
demonstrated against the Vietnam war.

``It's really important for us to show Europe and the rest of the world that we oppose this so they have
the courage to say 'No,''' said May Paddock, 60, of Copake, New York.

Protesters said the recent deployment of U.S. troops to the Gulf, and widespread speculation that a
Jan. 27 report by U.N. arms inspectors could serve as a trigger for war, had lit a fire under the American
peace movement.

Tens of thousands of demonstrators in Europe, the Middle East and Asia also denounced U.S. war
plans, where they beat drums, raised home-made placards and chanted slogans even as U.S. troops
streamed to the Gulf and Iraqi President Saddam Hussein vowed to repel the invaders.

'NO BLOOD FOR OIL'

In Washington, protesters pleaded for the White House to let inspections run their course and said
containment of Saddam is otherwise working. Some held homemade placards reading ``No Blood for Oil''
and ``Would Jesus Bomb Them?,'' waving them against the clear blue skies.

``Bush is counting on the fact that the American people have been lulled into complacency by
prosperity,'' said Kevin Lynch, one of 180 people from the Catholic Church of St. Joan of Arc in Minneapolis.
``He thinks middle-aged white guys like me are his bedrock supporters, and we're not.''

Several dozen war veterans held a counter-demonstration, billed as a ``Patriot's Rally'' in support of U.S.
troops, near the Vietnam War memorial on the Mall.

``You were born to reclaim this country. You were born to take this country back,'' Vietnam War veteran
and ``Born on the Fourth of July'' author Ron Kovic told the main peace rally. ``You will not only stop the
war, but you will change the priorities of this nation and return it to the people.''

Protesters later marched to a downtown Navy base to demand the right to inspect U.S. weapons of
mass destruction.

Rally organizers claimed attendance of up to 500,000 but there were no official figures, with the police
having adopted a policy of not estimating the size of Washington rallies.

In San Francisco a patchwork of environmentalists, labor activists, Hollywood celebrities, veterans and
self-described anarchists gathered to oppose an attack on Iraq.

One placard read ``If War is inevitable ... Start Drafting SUV Drivers Now,'' a reference to gas-guzzling
sport utility vehicles and the opinion of many protesters the conflict is over Iraq's oil resources.

Organizers estimated a turnout of up to 50,000 people, though that number could not be independently
verified.

Though U.S. opinion polls have shown broad support for ousting Iraqi President Saddam Hussein, a
Newsweek survey released on Saturday found 60 percent of Americans want to take more time to explore
nonmilitary solutions.

A TIME/CNN poll also found 49 percent of respondents thought Bush was doing a good job handling the
Iraq situation, while 44 percent thought he was doing a poor job.

On Thursday, United Nations weapons inspectors found empty rocket warheads designed to carry
chemical warfare agents, a discovery the White House called ``troubling and serious'' and evidence Saddam
was not disarming.
CC



To: ManyMoose who wrote (344924)1/19/2003 4:18:05 PM
From: Skywatcher  Read Replies (2) | Respond to of 769670
 
And BUSH LOST the popular vote....remember? the BALLOT BOX FIX
CC



To: ManyMoose who wrote (344924)1/19/2003 4:18:33 PM
From: Skywatcher  Respond to of 769670
 
Angry Protestors From Asia to the Americas Stage Mass Rallies
Agence France-Presse

Sunday January 19, 06:16 AM

Angry protestors from Asia to the Americas staged mass rallies to demonstrate against war in Iraq, in a
direct challenge to a US-led assault on Baghdad that many fear is drawing near.

Demonstrations were at full throttle in Japan and the Middle East, and others were launched in
European capitals from Moscow to Paris, ahead of peace protests planned in several US cities and in Latin
American countries.

Rallies in Britain, Germany, Ireland, Italy and Spain were expected to draw thousands more to protest
US President George W. Bush's threats to go to war against Baghdad and Washington's ramped-up war
preparations.

In London, where British Prime Minister Tony Blair has offered Europe's strongest support for Bush's
stance on Iraq, hundreds gathered near Northwood, the permanent joint headquarters of the British armed
forces.

Candlelit vigils were to be held later in the day in Birmingham, Nottingham and in London's Trafalgar
Square.

In Paris, an anti-war rally drew 6,000 people, according to police, as a range of left-wing activists
demanded that Washington lay aside its war plans. Organizers said 20,000 people marched through the
French capital.

"Obviously (Iraqi President) Saddam Hussein is a dictator. But if we attacked all non-democratic
regimes, there would be few peaceful countries left," said a woman attending her first protest.

Another 10,000 people rallied in France's southern city of Marseille, according to organisers, crying
"Bush, Blair, Chirac, we don't want your dirty war!" Police put protester numbers at 5,000.

Laura Nelson, a 43-year-old American who with her 18-year-old son joined in, said: "We are protesting
Bush's policies that favor the richest and the oil companies."

Peace protests were planned in some 40 other French cities.

In Germany, two demonstrations -- in the northeastern port city of Rostock and in the southwestern
university town of Tuebingen -- brought thousands out in support of peace.

In the Irish republic, around 1,500 activists gathered outside the Shannon airport to protest the possible
refuelling there of Gulf-bound US warplanes in the event of war, police said.

Sweden, too, saw up to 5,000 demonstrators march through the southwestern city of Gothenburg,
Swedish news agency TT reported.

Meanwhile, several hundred Russian Communists wielding banners of Lenin and Stalin rallied to
revolutionary songs outside the US embassy.

Waving crimson banners, the militants denounced the United States as a "terrorist" and "world
policeman", comparing Bush to Hitler.

Austrians got an early start in Vienna late Friday with 1,000 mostly students and school children
burning a US flag and chanting "Stop the War".

In Japan, rally organizers from World Peace Now said up to 5,000 protestors had marched through
Tokyo's glitzy shopping district Ginza.

"I hope that president Bush, who is acting like a cowboy, will recognize that an era of western films is
over," said Tomoharu Yamauchi, a 45-year-old coffee shop owner.

David Loy, an American teaching in Japan, carried a banner which read: "Today, I am ashamed to be a
US citizen".

Near the Pakistani capital, a human chain of more than 1,000 people -- including hundred
schoolchildren -- wove through the streets of Rawalpindi in a collective call for peace.

Children carried paper doves symbolizing the call for peace, while other held banners saying: "American
imperialism is brutal and mad" and "US has the maximum weapons of mass destruction."

Massive rallies were staged throughout the Middle East, including a march through the Syrian capital
that brought 15,000 people into the streets.

Shouting "Down with the United States!" the Damascus marchers carried banners reading: "Iraq: a
history and a civilization, not an oil well."

In neighboring Lebanon, more than 8,000 protestors marched to UN offices in central Beirut in the
largest anti-war rally held in support of Iraq in the past year.

Visiting British left-wing MP George Galloway took part in the protest, which gathered MPs as well as
several secular and nationalist Lebanese and Palestinian leaders.

"From Ramallah to Baghdad, one people that will never die!" was among the more popular chants.

A protest in Cairo had a more modest turnout, with only 300 people assembling in the central Sayeda
Zeynad Square, as a heavy police presence prevented others from joining in.

US anti-war protests were planned for Washington and San Francisco and other cities, synchronized
with the rallies in a total of 18 countries, including Argentina and Mexico.

Bush spokesman Ari Fleischer said Friday the US president was happy to allow the US rallies, since
they are a sign of the "strength of our democracy."

Saddam is accused by Washington and London of harboring and developing weapons of mass
destruction, and of not cooperating with UN weapons inspectors who are carrying out searches in Iraq.
CC



To: ManyMoose who wrote (344924)1/19/2003 4:19:28 PM
From: Skywatcher  Respond to of 769670
 
Talk about making a mountain out a molehill
Blix: Empty Weapons; "Not a Big Deal"
Agence France-Presse

Saturday 18 January 02:01 am.eu

UN inspectors' discovery of empty chemical warheads in Iraq is "troubling and serious", the White
House said, but inspections chief Hans Blix downplayed the find as "not a big deal".

As world leaders waited for more information on the discovery, Iraqi President Saddam Hussein stepped
up his defiant rhetoric, warning the US it faced "suicide" if it tried to invade his country.

President George W. Bush's spokesman, Ari Fleischer, said it was "becoming increasingly clear" that
Saddam had not disarmed, adding that 11 empty chemical warheads found Thursday did not appear on the
list of weapons Iraq had submitted to the United Nations.

"The fact that Iraq is in possession of undeclared chemical warheads which the United Nations says are
in excellent condition is troubling and serious," Fleischer said.

Meanwhile, chief UN arms inspector Hans Blix said he was seeking "more explanations" from Baghdad
about the empty warheads found in an Iraqi arms depot.

Speaking in Paris after talks with French President Jacques Chirac, he described the discovery as "not
a big deal" and urged the world "not to be worried".

Blix said the munitions were "empty warheads" and would be destroyed after undergoing tests, adding
that he was not yet sure whether they had featured in Iraq's weapons declaration to the UN last month.

The Iraqi statement was filed as part of UN resolution 1441 which gave Iraq one month to make a
complete disclosure of its weapons of mass destruction -- or face "serious consequences".

UN spokesman Hiro Ueki said the 11 warheads appeared in "excellent condition" and were undergoing
X-ray and chemical analyses.

Baghdad said the warheads were being used as a pretext for war, insisting they were not linked to any
prohibited weapons and had been out of use for at least seven years.

"These rockets are listed, filmed and documented by this same (UN inspection) commission, and a
number of these experts know this very well, but they are looking for a pretext for aggression," said Ali
Hassan al-Majid, a member of Iraq's Revolutionary Command Council and a cousin of Saddam.

Saddam himself warned that the US, which has already begun deploying an estimated 150,000 troops
to the Gulf, faces suicide if it invades Iraq.

"The people and rulers of Baghdad have resolved to compel the Mongols of this age to commit suicide
on its walls," Saddam said, in a speech marking the 12th anniversary of the outbreak of the Gulf War which
ended in his forces being ousted from Kuwait.

Blix on Friday repeated his demand for more cooperation from Baghdad, which is reported to be
dragging its feet over access to weapons scientists. "We feel that we need a more sincere and more
proactive cooperation from the Iraqi side," he said.

Chirac expressed his "full confidence" in the inspectors after the meeting with Blix and Mohamad
ElBaradei, head of the UN's nuclear watchdog, the International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA).

The French president backed calls to give UN inspections more time to work in Iraq, warning
Washington that any use of force must be agreed by the UN Security Council.

"Only the Security Council can assess the reports and requests of the inspectors," he said, adding any
nation which acts on its own would "not be complying with international rules".

"War is always a sign of failure and the worst solution," he added.

But Washington's ambassador to Moscow, Alexander Vershbow, said the US would soon provide fresh
intelligence demonstrating that Iraq possesses weapons of mass destruction.

World leaders' reactions to the warheads find was mixed, with Russia, which was briefed by ElBaradei
earlier this week, saying it confirmed the inspections were bearing fruit and should be continued.

Moscow's line was echoed by Italian Prime Minister Silvio Berlusconi.

"We think that the work of inspectors is giving results," Berlusconi said during a visit to Zagreb.
"Therefore it would be wise to give them more time, to extend their work beyond January 27 all through
February."

Greece, which currently holds the rotating EU presidency said it wanted a full picture of the inspectors'
work before reacting. Blix is due in Athens on Monday.

The European Union is deeply divided on the threat of war. Germany has vowed not to participate in any
military action against Iraq, while Britain has sent troops to the Gulf, backing a massive US military buildup
in the region.

But Britain too remained cautious on Friday about the discovery of the empty warheads, with Foreign
Office minister Mike O'Brien telling BBC radio there would be "no rush to judgement" over whether the
warheads constituted a "material breach" of resolution 1441 of the kind that could trigger military action.

Blix was due to meet with British Prime Minister Tony Blair later on Friday at his country residence
outside London.

Berlin meanwhile moved to distance itself from remarks by Defence Minister Peter Struck, who told
regional newspaper Rheinpfalz that it was "no longer conceivable" Germany would vote in favour of war in
Iraq at the UN Security Council.

A government spokesman said the minister had given a "personal opinion" on a position the government
has not yet drawn up.

German Chancellor Gerhard Schroeder also told NTV television that Saddam's exile from Iraq was
"desirable", following unconfirmed reports that Baghdad had issued a list of conditions under which its
president would leave the country willingly.

Angry scenes meanwhile greeted UN experts leaving for more inspections in Iraq, where several
hundred Iraqi journalists massed outside the inspectors' base to mark the Gulf War anniversary, chanting
pro-Saddam slogans.
CC



To: ManyMoose who wrote (344924)1/19/2003 9:25:59 PM
From: MSI  Read Replies (1) | Respond to of 769670
 
Thanks, that's the kind of discussion I was looking for ..

Comment: ballots are useless if the media fails to report the debate from the protestors' POV.

Nobody likes to go out in the cold, or drive a thousand miles to march -- these folks think things are seriously wrong. As informal as it is, these protests show that the media and politics are failing their accountability for that POV.

And they're right:

story.news.yahoo.com

Look at the stories of the DC protests... They are clearly designed to downplay or confuse any estimate of the size of the crowds, that discrepancy that jumps out of the page -- only at the end are there coy references to what the number really was. Even then, there were no professional estimates by any objective sources, they left it as "maybe more than 30,000 but 500,000 is laughable". That's quite a range, for a supposedly objective source. Basically, it's a joke, designed to obscure any truth.

It's no wonder people no longer believe the media, and have to go see for themselves.

Here's the opening paragraph:
"A crowd of about 1,000 rallied in view of the Executive Mansion..."

So, the reader skimming the top of the story sees "1,000", and figures, no big deal. Then:

"On Saturday, a great throng stretched from the grounds of the U.S. Capitol and along the National Mall back to the Smithsonian Institution (news - web sites) for a rally in bitter cold. The U.S. Park Police no longer gives estimates of rally attendance"

Just like VNS failed to provide exit polls, any information from a reliable, accountable source familiar with such things, like USPP has always done in the past, is eliminated, leaving only unaccountable estimates from anonymous and partisan sources.

Then, this clearly editorial comment:

"In the past, crowds taking up similar space were thought to be 70,000 strong or higher, but any parallels with other events were highly inexact. A much smaller group from the rally, but still numbering over 30,000 by city police estimates, went on to march to the Washington Navy Yard"

And this capper to further obscure any idea of participation, at least in this story, and leaving any large numbers for the very end of the story:

"Rally speakers offered varying estimates of the crowd size, with one telling the crowd that 500,000 had come, but even some supporters of the event thought that was wildly exaggerated"

It's a laugh, alright.

Anyway, that's the purpose of rallies, political expression, protest marches, and debates.

Otherwise, it's "sit down, shut up, and if we want your opinion, we'll give it to you. Now, go vote for who we tell you."

I doubt you and I will agree on policy, but "seizing power" is hardly what these protests can be called by any stretch of the imagination ...

Hey, what do you think of the Venezuelan protests???
Do you think they should go back in their houses, shut up and watch tv?