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Pastimes : The Boxing Ring Revived -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?

To: The Philosopher who wrote (3947)	1/22/2003 12:12:03 AM
From: one_less	Respond to of 7720

Getting past your irrelevent ranting about kings and such...the following is a pretty significant basis for our discussion: <I'm not asking them to authorize it. I'm asking them not to forbid it. "I am telling them not to." I understand that. What I don't understand is why you include the government at all except as a member of humanity which creates a legal bond. You can go kill yourself. I promise the government wont prosecute you. "The government can't GIVE that right -- it was already mine. The government can only TAKE IT AWAY. If it can't be given, it can't be taken away. You have the right to live, and the right to die. These things cannot be interfered with by the government. One day you there you were, one day there you wont be. The government can't change that fact. "Before we had a govenrment in this country, every person here had the right to commit suicide if they chose to." Irrelevent. Before there was a government nothing was illegal. You could do what you wanted. If you go to a place where there is no governing authority now the same holds true. "Right to bla blah blah is almost meaningless in this context."

To: The Philosopher who wrote (3947)	1/22/2003 1:19:51 AM
From: one_less	Respond to of 7720

"Before we had a govenrment in this country, every person here had the right to commit suicide if they chose to. The government can't GIVE that right -- it was already mine. The government can only TAKE IT AWAY. " My life, liberty, and pursuit of happiness is foundationally protected. Restrictions on my choices in these areas are also imposed by government. There are restrictions about how I may pursue happiness, for example. These restrictions are endemically related to the recognition and well being of my associated members of humanity. You seem to be disagreeing that humanity is an obligation on your part, and that the government has an obligation to consider the rest of humanity in your regard. The government does not give or take away rights. Rights are what is right based on the fact that we are human beings and members of humanity. Some rights (not all) were declared when establishing a framework to begin a government for the US. I am a sexual being, for example. I have a right to be a sexual being because I am a human being and that is what is a given for human beings. This right was not stated in the preamble to the bill of rights, nor do I think it was necessary. Can the government take my right to be a sexual being away? No, I just am one. They can however pass laws to offer respect for my sexuality or they can pass laws restricting my choices to act out as a sexual being. The government may elect laws that offer some protections and some restrictions. It is illegal for me to jump women on the street and have sex. Why? Using your arguement; before there was a government here this was not illegal. It is illegal because it would be inconsiderate of my obligation to have regard for the other members of humanity and the condition of humanity itself. Your right to life, and death cannot be taken away by the government. But like everything else the government can make laws restricting your choices around these rights. You have the ability to make life and death decisions on your own behalf. That is not the same as having a right to cause your own life and death. Where it can be determined that your obligation to have regard for another member of humanity or regard for humanity as a whole is being denied, the government has an obligation to consider the legality of taking action on such decisions. Your ability to make such a choice can also be denied by the other member (someone who acts to intervene and stop you from committing suicide) and (as happens to be the legal case) by humanity as a whole.