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Politics : Foreign Affairs Discussion Group -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?

To: frankw1900 who wrote (67869)	1/23/2003 2:07:29 PM
From: JohnM	Respond to of 281500

The "inequalities," as you call them, that US, Canada and EU have found growing to various degrees the last 25 -30 years I believe are mostly the result of misguided social and financial policies. I believe these policies are promoted by those who want to do good and help people. Yep, we are definitely on different pages. I would never put inequalities in parentheses as if they didn't exist or were unimportant. So, that's one. Second, I think the assertion you make, that the growing inequalities are the result of "misguided social and financial policies" is about the opposite of mine. Assuming, of course, you mean you think that government attempts to correct for inequalities, to provide some redistribution, to provide some safety net. My view is very much the opposite, that it's the absence of government action that has contributed the most to the growing inequalities. But those debates, while fascinating to both of us, are OT for this thread. This is mostly OT to FADG. However, one example of do good policy which is relevant to discussion here is the that of certain European countries putting entering immigrants on welfare right away. This caters to existing poor attitudes in both the receiving and immigrant populations. France and its muslim population is an example and both are paying a terrible price. Dennis O'Bell has posted about this from time to time. I, for one, would consider that issue very much germane to this thread but am absolutely unable to talk about it seriously save in the most mundane of ways. Generally these kinds of policies need to be looked at in their specifics to criticize them: what was the intent, which populations are effected, what have been the consequences, etc.? I know squat about that. A quick counter on that one. When Thommy Thompson became governor of Wisconsin, he instituted some rather drastic anti-welfare measures. I forgot now, at this remove, what the precise terms of them were. However, bless his soul, when he did so, he also saw to it that there were serious, nonpartisan research programs put in place to analyze the results. Stuff that could be trusted. Turns out the results, rather than fulfill either the dramatic fears of the left or the hopes of the right, were mixed. And it was possible, again thanks to Thompson, to then fine tune the policies. So, a story to underline what I'm saying. I'm reluctant to get into the issue you raise without reading a great deal about it. I put "inequalities" in quotation marks because it's too circumscribed. In my view it's not descriptive enough. Intriguing. Care to elaborate? If you think it would take us too much further into OT, how about a PM. This much is clear to me. The problem is not 'class' as Dowd uses the word. Lack of opportunity, poor educational access, racism, are not problems of class but are symptoms of policies that don't work as intended. The great emotional or ideological commitment many have to these policies doesn't change their ineffectiveness and doesn't allow space for contemplation of alternatives. This, also, is intriguing. She certainly wasn't using the term "class" in its classical sociological sense but rather in a more popular sense. If you mean by "symptoms of policies that don't work as intended" that welfare systems make folk lazy, then you and have a basic premise difference and wouldn't get too far in a conversation. If you mean something else, then I would welcome a follow up. But it might best be done in a PM.