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Politics : Foreign Affairs Discussion Group -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?

To: unclewest who wrote (68788)	1/25/2003 9:08:41 PM
From: JohnM	Read Replies (2) \| Respond to of 281500

And a good evening to you, Mike. As for my reply to Bill, I don't think the term "anti-war" is a terribly descriptive one right now. It takes arguments which are critical of the Bush administration's present approach to Iraq and labels them "anti-war." It's a rhetorical put down rather than an honest engagement. Not as extreme, by any means, as labeling folk who criticize the Bush administration as "anti-American." But it's the same strategy. Come on John, that is being pretty thin skinned. LB has a point and he made it an unthreatening, uninsulting way. No need to get hysterical. Oh, I didn't consider his point either threatening or insulting; I saw it rather as a political strategy that I simply didn't like. As for American tanks and flowers, my guess is Bill meant that somewhat more metaphorical than that, but who knows. the difference between us seems to be that some of us never want to fight and some of us think some things are worth fighting for. Nope, I understand how you can reach that conclusion but it's inaccurate, at best. It does the dichotomy thing and makes you and LB the moral ones. Anyone who argues against you lacks courage. That's not a conversation; rather a rhetorical put down device. Some folk honestly believe that this particular invasion of Iraq bit is a huge mistake. It, actually, takes more courage to maintain that position than to defend fairly narrow definitions of patriotism in a time of hyper-patriotism. If I am right...arguing here will never resolve anything. That is why I quit posting here. Well, you probably should, because our little discussions here are never going to resolve anything. Some of us have learned a great deal from one another over the many, many months the thread has been around but "resolving" things is not a way I would picture any of it. Wishfully hoping that the world has changed and all is well doesn't hack it. The world has changed and it is more hazardous than ever. Well, Mike, we certainly do agree on that. But we disagree as to whether invading Iraq increases or decreases that vulnerability; whether the Bush folk made a wrong turn into Iraq after a successful campaign in Afghanistan; whether a doctrine of pre-emptive attacks makes the world safer. Well, you get the point. I could go on. Thanks for the response. Stay warm. I understand NC got some of our cold and the Outer Banks got the snow we've missed over the past several weeks. Someone said 10 inches.

To: unclewest who wrote (68788)	1/25/2003 9:13:32 PM
From: Elsewhere	Respond to of 281500

Such as when US Tanks faced down Soviet tanks at Checkpoint Charlie in 1961. The fully armed confrontation was from less than 150 yards apart. Here's a photo: gwu.edu

To: unclewest who wrote (68788)	1/26/2003 2:27:35 AM
From: KLP	Respond to of 281500

unclewest, of course, as you said, this is: The very crux of the matter...."the difference between us seems to be that some of us never want to fight and some of us think some things are worth fighting for" This of course, isn't a "left" or a "right" issue...it is an American issue. And in the much larger view of things, a human issue. For many of us, "trust" in our Government officials and their Oath to Defend the United States of America and its citizens, and to believe the proof they have is real and documented, is enough. Some of us...."say no...we don't trust...we just don't want war....at any price"..... "we just won't say what should be done about the very bad situation we're ALL in....we just don't believe anything is worth fighting for".... How many 9-11's will Americans have to have? Freedom is worth fighting for. And if not now, .....when? Some of my ancestors were part of the Underground Tunnel from the South to the North, that helped many people live for another day, and raise their families. These ancestors didn't have to do that. They could have just pretended all was well. I'm glad they didn't. It wasn't.

To: unclewest who wrote (68788)	1/27/2003 12:29:56 AM
From: MSI	Read Replies (3) \| Respond to of 281500

This doesn't give appropriate attention to the real issues. Most are not "anti-war"... until we evolve as a species armed combat will be necessary. But only when threatened, however; and this war is clearly, in the minds of a majority of Americans, as yet unwarranted, and requires other confirmation of substance, such as UN/allied support, or some convincing proof of threat. As it is, the exercise looks suspicious. The easy way out is to paint the argument between the "willing" and the "unwilling" to fight. That would be a major error. If the gov't considers dissidents unwilling to fight for country, they should just try to formally abandon Posse Comitatus and take over some of the countryside, and watch the revolution. In case you missed it, some of the JCS have argued against the Iraq policy, and were told by Bush that they commit "treason" (his words) if they oppose official policy. An interesting idea, and certainly its within the chain of command to do many things, but this is not one of them, and indicative of major disagreements, I would venture to say for significant rather than insignificant reasons. And there are many other generals who oppose this rash action, would you call them "anti-American" or otherwise impugn their courage? It's an issue of facts, and to my mind name-calling is an easy way out for the timid, or those who have made up their minds and want no facts to confuse themselves. BTW, thanks for your preparedness booklet... Let's hope the preparations are never needed