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Politics : Foreign Affairs Discussion Group -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?

To: Bilow who wrote (69168)	1/27/2003 8:58:31 PM
From: frankw1900	Respond to of 281500

Oh Carl, Stop being so wussy. If you're going to pull my leg give it a big yank. Oh, you mean like when the leader of a country professes to use Jesus as his guiding principle? Presumably you are referring to Dubya who swore an oath before God and Country to preserve and protect the US Constitution? Jesus isn't a bad guide here (say I, who am profoundly unreligious): "Render unto Caesar what is Caesar's...." Or when a country has an official state religion that is supported by the state (i.e. Church of England in Britain, or Judaism in Israel)? The British have made very sure that the Church of England has little to do with religion and less to do with politics. Israel is interesting as we see a struggle there between archaic folk (a minority with extra privileges) who wish to make the country theocratic, and the majority who are secular and modern and wish to see less religious involvement in the government. So far, modernity is ahead there. Or does it apply to countries where the primary argument for supporting the leader is because he's the leader, and he wouldn't lie to us? (LOL!) If you're talking about N Korea or Iraq, or the former Soviet countries, which have rulers, yes. Although there's lots of ideological rubbish backing that up. Some misguided citizens of modern countries make such statements in the course of hot political argument but they're making a mistake. It sounds to me that based on your own definitions, the French and Germans are more modern than the British, Israelis and the US. Certainly they're a hell of a lot less religious. Not really. The British have an unwritten constitution but have made good and sure law and custom separate Church and state. As you know, the US has separation of religion and state written into its constitution. It may be that the US has more devout people than European countries but that doesn't mean it is less modern. As someone pointed out here, probably me, the reason for separating religion and state is to make life less political. Religion, as rule, is prescriptive and therefore profoundly totalitarian. The religious ruler (like the fascist and communist dictator) reaches into every corner of our lives and thought and thus all is politicized. At this point there is no freedom. Here are the words of an expert on the subject: "However, if by modernism and civilization is meant, as some professional intellectuals claim, freedom of vice, prostitution and even homosexuality, then all divine religions, men of reason and learning are opposed to it, even though some individuals with pro-western or pro-eastern leanings may blindly promote these things. However, the second category of the foes of Islam who entertain more vicious plots claim that religion and politics are not compatible and cannot be combined. These ignorant individuals must realize that the Holy Quran and the traditions of the Prophet of Islam contain more lessons, decrees and commands on the rule of government and politics than they do on any other issue. Indeed a good many Islamic laws concerning worship have political aspects as well. Neglecting such aspects has often resulted in catastrophes. The prophet of Islam founded a government just like any other except that it seeks to promote social justice and equity." R. Khomeini ic-el.org The poor Iranians get nothing but politics morning, noon and night as their government "seeks to promote social justice and equity" and thus involves itself in every nook and cranny of personal life. Western countries (and Soviet countries with their communist secular religion substitute) went through all this terror and don't really need to entertain its missionaries again. The French and Germans fought in the world's biggest war which was fought to save modernity. It may be they are avoiding looking at the enemy's return. frank@maybeyoudidyankhard.urg