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Politics : Foreign Affairs Discussion Group -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?

To: Jacob Snyder who wrote (76985)	2/23/2003 11:46:36 PM
From: Nadine Carroll	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 281500

The two leading pacifists of the last century are King and Gandhi. Both advocated an aggressive, engaged, world-changing pacifism. There was nothing passive, weak, or yielding about either of them, in what they said or what they did. They were not cynics; if anything they were over-optimistic about humanity's ability to improve itself. And they changed the world. Indeed. But consider the nature of their opponents.

To: Jacob Snyder who wrote (76985)	2/24/2003 12:00:13 AM
From: ManyMoose	Respond to of 281500

King and Ghandi both operated in nations struggling against lingering elements of bigotry and hatred. They succeeded because their message made sense to the overwhelming majority of free and moral people. Their nations were not headed by tyrants. Their constitutions revered and permitted freedom for all. Ghandi and King would have failed under the thumb of Saddam Hussein or Osama bin Laden. Instead, they would have been exterminated. So, sometimes, yes: The two choices are willingness to kill, or do nothing and be killed. The derivative possibility through our determination and ability to persevere is to convince the evildoer that their positions are futile. The best possible resolution of the current crisis would be for Saddam and Osama to hang up their guns and leave town. That won't happen as long as they aren't convinced of our resolve. "Peace" protests prolong the agony and are very unhelpful. They are not in the least comparable to Ghandi and King's pacifism.

To: Jacob Snyder who wrote (76985)	2/24/2003 12:02:31 AM
From: Sig	Respond to of 281500

<<So, the only choices are: 1. kill 2. do nothing>> More like kill or be killed. Chances of the later can be reduced by wearing a gas mask, getting a full set of "shots", and stay out of Mosques, public places , and tall buildings Sig If still worried, some more opportunities Put down a well , raise own vegetables, and can them Buy a bicycle since you wont be able to afford gas when Saddam gets 40% of worlds oil supply( he has 25% already) Mentally prepare for increased taxes and insurance rates, because we are going to pay for the $100 bil for replacing the the WTC Get some duct tape and plastic at the Home Depot- if they have any left

To: Jacob Snyder who wrote (76985)	2/24/2003 12:04:50 AM
From: paul_philp	Respond to of 281500

So, the only choices are: 1. kill 2. do nothing No other choices? In Iraq yes. Your morally superior attitude doesn't change anything. Paul

To: Jacob Snyder who wrote (76985)	2/24/2003 12:11:49 AM
From: paul_philp	Respond to of 281500

They were not cynics; if anything they were over-optimistic about humanity's ability to improve itself. And they changed the world. If the anti-war movement had a King or Ghandi I would pay attention - all I want is a viable alternative and I have not seen one yet. Even Hans Blix says that the threat of war and the US military buildup is the only reason he is getting the small bit of co-operation out of Saddam. So, continued inspections (which diminish the war threat) are not an alternative. Containment was used by OBL as a recruiting advert and a justification of the 9-11 attacks so excuse me if I am not happy about that alternative. Paul