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Politics : High Tolerance Plasticity -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?

To: el_gaviero who wrote (18984)	2/24/2003 11:22:05 AM
From: CpsOmis	Respond to of 23153

el_g.... bravo..... logical, unemotional and respectful. Perhaps the OSX isn't at a top after all due to the food fight index? Cosmo

To: el_gaviero who wrote (18984)	2/24/2003 11:45:31 AM
From: kodiak_bull	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 23153

El Gav, Excellent reply. As a true multiculturalist, I don't believe in the evangelization of Western Civilization. I do think it has certain superior attributes, for us, and several wonderful attributes that other cultures and nations will be forced to adopt or get left completely, totally behind. This is not a case of imperialists forcing their way on others, but of the world simply passing them by. E.g., the native Americans, who will never progress as long as they continue to gaze back wistfully at an idyllic, pre-European past which never really existed. (Read some pre-Columbian Mexican history for tales from an incredibly bloodthirsty culture.) The problem with the Muslim world is that they have not ever developed a decent code of laws (the Sharia, what a joke--basically a kangaroo court subject to economic power and gender based power, imho) and so nobody is even slightly protected in person or property. Power rules, whether it's the local headman in a Pakistani village or a rich merchant in the medina in Meknes. Go back and read 1000 Nights and think about Saddam Hussein or the mullahs of Iran, or the Saudi family. Nothing as changed except the weaponry. Power is the right to take, to oppress, to murder and rape. Since long before Moabdil was forced out of the Alhambra in Granada, the Islamic world had ground to a halt in terms of evolving to provide its people with peace and progress. There hasn't been a single invention, discovery, etc. from that part of the world since 1050 a.d., and much of that was built on earlier progress from China, and translated documents from Greek and Latin. Maybe the greatest boost to the Golden Age of Muslim science was the timely (and lucky) introduction of paper making technology; without Chinese paper, maybe no modern mathematics or moon shots. It's amazing for a culture which advanced geometry and trigonometry, and created geometry, that the last 1,000 years have produced nothing in the sciences, engineering, architecture, industrialization, political science, rights of man, protection of the weak, etc. etc. ad infinitum. Anyway, good answer, good discussion; but how are we going to make any money out of it? That's my question. Kb

To: el_gaviero who wrote (18984)	2/24/2003 11:45:33 PM
From: Warpfactor	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 23153

<<Osama bin Laden SAID he attacked for two reasons, because our troops were in the holy land, and because of our one-sided support of Israel against the Palestinians. I have thought from the time of the 9/11 that we should wipe out al-Qaeda, then quietly and unostentatiously comply with its demands.>> I'm going from memory here, but a few months after 9/11 and before the Afganistan invasion commenced, a reporter got an audience with Osama. One of the lines of questions dealt with why Al-Queda has been sent to attack American people. His response was to that he did not like the American government and its policies. But since the USA is a democracy and we the people voted for our leadership, all Americans must bear the brunt of their governments decisions. In that interview, I recall more of the "great satan" BS than our support of Israel. Maybe if someone has reference to this interview, they can post it. << It establishes a principle so broad and so vapid (help Western Civ, hurt everybody else) that where it gets applied depends on other considerations. >> Not the case - We take the "side" of Western Civilization when the opponent has written policies stating that the goal is destruction of the West. If the culture is not threatening to Western Civilization, then there is no need to take up arms against it. Clerics in France, Britian and here in the USA are periodically spouting off about turning the democracy into an Islamic state. The Koran writes of killing infidels wherever they may be encountered. Islamic extremists who follow those principles to the letter, these are the enemy. <<Factually not true. Sharon, in the fall of 2000 (if I remember correctly) visited the Temple Mount on a Friday afternoon at about the time that Mosque was letting out. He did this knowing full well that his presence would be a provocation. The next day Israeli soldiers went in and killed seven of the usual mob of rock throwing kids.>> The Israeli's surely are not saints. But if you are trying to use one sole example to counter the scores of homicide bombings of innocent Jewish people, then I guess you have successfully countered my statement and won the arguement. But it seems that you are attempting to equate the levels of atrocities INITIATED by both sides, and I do not see that. <<If you don’t believe me, look up the facts about the Liberty (which, if I remember correctly, was the name of the American naval ship attack by Israeli warplanes, in which 30 American seamen were killed. >> I do not dispute the above. Like I said, the Israelis are not saints. There are several conspiracies out there wrt to the Israelis and their involvement in 9-11 attacks. I would not entirely discount that some are not in part true. But you have not swayed me against favoring Israel over the Palestinian people. Why can't the Palestinians try a different tactic? Ever hear of Gandhi?? The Arab world do not want to integrate, they do not want the Israeli state anywhere in the Middle East. Their maps do not as much as acknowledge that a Jewish state exists. Maybe as KB suggests we need to relocate the entirety of Jewish Israel to the USA. Here's a place: nyecounty.net Nye County NV has twice the acreage of Israel, but only about 35,000 population vs. the 6 million of Israel. Squeeze the 35000 into 1/2 of Nye County, and donate the remainder to resettle the Jewish people of Israel.