SI
SI
discoversearch

We've detected that you're using an ad content blocking browser plug-in or feature. Ads provide a critical source of revenue to the continued operation of Silicon Investor.  We ask that you disable ad blocking while on Silicon Investor in the best interests of our community.  If you are not using an ad blocker but are still receiving this message, make sure your browser's tracking protection is set to the 'standard' level.
Politics : Foreign Affairs Discussion Group -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?


To: Dayuhan who wrote (77595)2/26/2003 12:15:01 AM
From: Rollcast...  Read Replies (1) | Respond to of 281500
 
I'll bite.

What do you consider to be sufficient grounds to justify the invasion of one nation by another

1) From a state which has no history of sponsoring terror I would set the bar for evidence at: Demonstration of an imminent threat or attack on a sovereign neighbor. Or an actual aggressive act like an invasion.

2) From a proven State sponsor of terrorism: demonstration of the manufacture of any WMD, further sponsorship of terrorism.

And yes, I know that would cause quite a few of our "friends" in the ME to freak... but that is the point (of Iraq). They all have to change.



To: Dayuhan who wrote (77595)2/26/2003 1:19:03 AM
From: LLLefty  Respond to of 281500
 
>>>I’m looking for a general rule, a set of criteria that could be applied to conflicts around the world.<<

And I've been looking for an overdue major address that goes beyond the immediate and provides a framework, a touchstone, for the Administration's conduct globally and regionally. It might help answer the perplexity now voiced at home and in quarters around the world about the direction of the US. Whether Democrat or Republican in the White House, foreign policy direction has generally remained within recognized parameters. We seem to be writing a piecemeal book and it's time for the President to put it together. He owes it to us (and to friends and enemies abroad) and this time, Let Colin Powell have a crack at it this time around in case Bush wants to add France and Germany to the Axis of Evil.



To: Dayuhan who wrote (77595)2/26/2003 6:42:06 AM
From: frankw1900  Read Replies (1) | Respond to of 281500
 
What do you consider to be sufficient grounds to justify the invasion of one nation by another?

I don't think this is a simple question

What might be situations leading to an invasion proposal? Here are a few.

1. Military attack. (Including attacks by proxies?)

2. Genocide or ethnic cleansing.

3. Huge civil rights violations? (eg stalinist regime).

4. Military coups?

5. Theft of common resource like water?

What might be some characteristics of the invader and its case for invasion?

6. Loss of territory or resources.

7. Threatened sovreignty or actual loss of it.

8. Disinterestedness. (In the case of genocide and/or massive injustice). That is, the invader is not deliberately trying to gain huge material advantage or political dominion. That's not to say it has no interest of any sort.

(I have to say I'm a "modernity chauvinist" and therefore tend to favour cases amde by democracies).

I think 2, 3,4 and 8 are the most controversial items.

I think you do have to look at specific cases and how they played out to get a real feel for it.

Vietnam's invasion to stop the Pol Pot horror is an instructive case.

I think also the intervention in Yugoslavia is useful.

US invasion of Afghanistan.

US invasion of Granada, Panama.

Russian invasion of Chechnya.

The non-invasion of Rwanda and the genocide. (The UN's own representatives asked for intervention).

Israel's invasion of Lebanon.

I had a dustup about this with Zonder last fall. It came out of the Iraq discussion but I found it interesting generally.

Discussion and treaty making seem mostly concerned with the rights of collectivities - governments, rulers, and sometimes more rarely, ethnic and religious groups - rather than individuals. The emphasis is on integrity of boundaries.

As the world becomes smaller activities within countries such as civil war and heavy repression are having a greater effect not just on neighbours but further removed countries as refugees flee and economic activity is diminshed with accompanying hardships. Warfare in areas like the Middle East have a worldwide economic effect.

Boundary integrity does not guarantee quarantine of disastrous results and noxious influence. It tends to insure the security of massive criminal enterprise.

Only recently have human rights become an international issue and sovreignty of individuals any sort of serious topic for discussion, treaty making, or reason for military intervention. There is not a lot of international law on the subject.

I found this article on the NATO Yugoslavia intervention interesting:

216.239.33.100

www.law.cam.ac.uk/RCIL/Murase.doc

Also here:

law.cam.ac.uk

Look for "State Responsibility Project"



To: Dayuhan who wrote (77595)2/27/2003 12:22:59 AM
From: greenspirit  Read Replies (1) | Respond to of 281500
 
res- Let me ask you a simple question...

What do you consider to be sufficient grounds to justify the invasion of one nation by another?


First of all, I don't believe there are any "simple" answers to that question. But I'll give you my 2cents "Cummings Doctrine". :)

Under most circumstances war is to be avoided, it is painful, bloody, and frightening. We must have exhausted all reasonable means of solving the conflict short of war.

1. The nation represents a threat to America and world peace.
2. There's a vital national interest at stake.
3. The cost to our men and women in uniform is reasonable.
4. We have a high propensity of success.
5. Our invasion will improve the living conditions of the nation.
6. Don’t do more harm than the evil already being done.

That would be my basic premises Steven. But I reserve the right to be wrong.



To: Dayuhan who wrote (77595)2/28/2003 3:59:07 AM
From: Jacob Snyder  Read Replies (3) | Respond to of 281500
 
<What do you consider to be sufficient grounds to justify the invasion of one nation by another?>

When I look at the replies you've gotten to this question, and various other justifications of war I've read, it strikes me how flexibly we use words. Certain words are so elastic, that clever people can stretch them to mean anything. Words like "defense", "threat", "attack". Once you start making any such list of "just causes for just wars", you are on a slippery slope. And lots of very smart people make a career out of applying more grease to that Slope. So, any list you make, has to have no vagueness, no wiggle room, no "elastic" phrases, or the exercise is meaningless.

As the world becomes smaller, I become more dependant on the good behavior of distant people. There is an accelerating trend, for everyone on Earth (and especially the wealthy fraction) to be dependant on ideas, capital, raw materials, labor, that comes from every corner of the planet. If I was a typical peasant in AD 1000 in China or Europe, it is unlikely I would consume anything that wasn't produced within a few miles of where I was born, lived, and died. I wouldn't have to make up any rules about how to deal with anything outside that narrow circle; as long as it left me alone, I could ignore it. Today, the parts and raw materials for my Subaru probably come from 30 different nations. The fresh fruit and vegetables I eat come from several continents; so I am affected by what happens in all those countries, and I have to make "rules of engagement". And, the smaller the world gets, the more important it is to have rules, and (more to the point) to have an Enforcer for the rules.

From Game Theory, the best "rules of engagement" for dealing with an Uncontrolled Other Player, is: Strict Reciprocity, with Intermittent Forgiveness. That is, do back to them exactly what they've done to you. This can reinforce and reward good behavior; it can also evolve into endless cycles of revenge, which is where the intermittent forgiveness comes in. Playing the Game this way, creates the most good for the most players. This is true, even if some of the players are monsters, and most of the rest are fools.

So, my simple answer to your question is: invade only if you have been invaded. Attack only if you have been attacked. Strict Reciprocity.

OK, I'll make it a bit less simple: many nations are too small to credibly be able to defend themselves, so mutual defence alliances make sense. A nation such as Holland or Belgium can only protect itself from invasion, by being wedded to a France, or better yet, a U.S.A. An Israel can only survive, if it finds a patron such as the U.S.

The problem with mutual defence alliances is, they tend to be a mask for an Empire. That is, they have one aggressive dominant member, and everyone else does as they are told. One member pays most of the bills, has all the power, assembles and maintains the alliance. The Heart of the Empire, its conquering soul, has achieved success by dominating other nations, and there is an inevitable tendency to generalise that Will To Control, until it comes to a bad end in places like Stalingrad and Dien Bien Phu.

It's hard to come up with any historical examples of mutual defense alliances, that weren't really Empires. Both the Warsaw Pact and NATO are examples of Empires. There was nothing really consensual about the formation or running of either alliance. In both cases, there was one overwhelmingly dominant member, who nobody else could oppose on any crucial issue. As they both recede into history, they are going to look like the identical twins they were. So, when I propose mutual defense alliances, I'm afraid I'm drifting into Utopianism.

The EU (NATO minus the U.S.) looks the closest to the Real Thing. It expands without conquest; it has no Sparta at its center; intra-alliance conflict is settled nonviolently. But even here, we see that France wants to play the role in the EU that the U.S. played in NATO. That's what Chirac's recent scolding of E. Europe was about. Looking at this, it seems hopelessly Utopian, to think that relations between nations will ever be based on anything but Force and the Threat of Force. Which requires no justification for invasions, other than for propaganda purposes.

What President Bush proposed, in his recent Preaching To The
Choir at the American Enterprise Institute, is yet another Empire, and the most ambitious one yet in the world's history. His solution, for how to handle international conflict, is to make the planet into one big NATO. The U.S. will make the rules and enforce them. Unilaterally. The U.S. will decide what is the minimally acceptable standards for behavior, among the world's 200 nations, and then do "regime change" on whoever steps over the line. And, in order to make the "fix" more lasting, we'll do "nation-building" afterward. Just like we did in Japan and Germany.

This answers your question with: "sufficient grounds are whatever the U.S. President says they are, and you just have to trust him."

This might be a workable solution, except that the U.S. is only 5% of the world's population. Yes, that gives us about the same ratio as Spartan warriors had to their helots. But it's just too big a job, and we don't really want to be like that.

Which leaves me with my simple Strict Reciprocity. And Intermittent Forgiveness.