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Politics : DON'T START THE WAR -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?


To: PartyTime who wrote (13484)2/27/2003 1:07:36 AM
From: Mark Konrad  Read Replies (1) | Respond to of 25898
 
"Bush playing for wealth and power? Well, he is beholden to those who put him where he is, and they've got big hands held out."

No different than any other elected official, though he does take an oath to preserve, protect and defend the Constitution.

"And there is a tendency for dynasty in America." Not at all, and certainly not compared to any other nation on earth. In over 200 years we've had only a few presidential dynasties: Adams, Roosevelt (a stretch there), Bush, maybe the Kennedys (also a stretch).

"Bush's perception of freedom is a given, and it's easier for him to imagine he's doing something for others. Really though, he's out of touch. Way out of touch!" Really? Compared to whom? Bill Clinton (who never held anything but a government job)?

"The fact is the vast majority of Americans struggle to find every bit of time and freedom they can, this while functioning in double-earner families and in more demanding job environments."

A logical and persuasive argument in favor of the President's tax reduction proposal.

"One could argue that best way to enslave people is to make them think that they are free!"

I totally agree with your Orwellian (1984) statement: "Slavery is Freedom!" Used successfully by the Soviet union for about 70 years and still going strong in North Korea. Gotta love the classics.

"I'm amazed that the television set has replaced the true notion of freedom. "Hey, I'm told I'm free--I must be." One might even argue that open-air cafes in a two-bit country, cafes that are open 24 hours and serve up booze and dance and offer warm beaches for love is a considerably freer state of condition than being slumped out in the chair, nodding and snoring from having worked much too hard during the day, only to have enough money to maybe afford a new lawn mower next year. There is, however, the Christmas week off and the company Fouth of July Softball Picnic. Yeah, that's nice!"

Wow, that's a stream of consciousness...and maybe "freedom" is just another word for nothing left to lose (courtesy Janis Joplin). Howzabout freedom is being able to choose between tennis and the tube, fish or chicken, wheat or rye, and not having to ask permission or apply for a ration card?

"And, yes, you can write a letter to the editor and maybe even they might publish it. Yup, that's freedom. And of course, you can watch the news and watch all the major news stations report the same stories, almost at the same time and at the same length using just a few different words.
And, of course, you have the freedom to vote. But the manipulation is so rampant and the shutting out of society so prevalent (see drug war) that only half the people vote nationally; one-third vote statewide and 16 percent vote municipally. The money is aimed and buys the tiny sliver in the middle who make the difference between the two political party's respective base. Well, that's sorta free! Ain't it?"

You realize, of course, that what you and I are doing right now is not allowed in many countries and is probably at least a jailable offense (including Iraq). In Zimbabwe we could be executed for even conversing negatively about Robert Mugabe. Don't take freedom of speech so lightly.

As for voting, part of freedom is the freedom NOT to vote if one so chooses. I'd rather have fewer well-informed rational voters making decisions than some torch-wielding anarchistic lynch mob or ballot-stuffing drones bought off by some union boss.

"And if your car breaks down or you flunk your inspection they'll fine you and take your car off the road. Eventually, you never got enough money up so the plate and the insurance expire and then they come and insist you pay money just to keep the unplated car on your property--freedom on the road and off the road.
Of course, you could go to the sticks somewhere and try and find a place where there's no zoning so that you can build something you might think is free.
You could have a job where you have to wear a suit or a uniform and have some hardass barking at you all day long. That's free too.
If you're a relatively new immigrant, you can pile up two families in a one family and double and triple up in small apartments and work barely-make-it-type jobs.
Hey, you might wanna relax and light up a joint. But they'll tell you you can't do that. They'll even put you in prison where they can't even keep joints out of prison. And of this kind of freedom, hey, America puts more people in jail per capita than any other nation. And California's prison budget once exceeded its education budget. Wow, freedom!
You wanna know why Bush is doing what he's doing? 'Cause he, personally, doesn't wanna have the kinds of freedoms described above."

Well! Now I understand the "PartyTime" moniker! So I'm not free UNLESS I can drive an unsafe, unregistered, uninsured vehicle, filled with illegal aliens while under the influence of marijuana? Please let me know when you plan to be out driving so I can stay out of your way! Notice, also, the US does NOT have an illegal EMIGRATION problem. Seems like everyone wants to come here and not go home. Why is that if things are as bad here as you say?

"More seriously, however, what Bush is doing is playing to the pipe dream put into his thinking by some of the rightwingers who closely advise him. You see, Bush is actually playing to history, Mark.
Ironically, so is Saddam. Whether they realize it or not, they'll both get their debate. But it'll be debated by others, not them. The way I see it, they both lose!"

PT, my friend, we may be far, far apart on philosophy but I have a hunch you're a damn fine person. Everyone has a place in history...we are creatures granted "free will" and there are no others on earth. Every day I hope and pray for peaceful resolutions to all our worldly problems, that God and Nature may inspire an epiphany to those who have murder or other evils on their minds. War, even if justified and unavoidable, is still horrific. Thank you for providing a thoughtful and lively debate--MK--



To: PartyTime who wrote (13484)2/27/2003 4:13:20 AM
From: GUSTAVE JAEGER  Respond to of 25898
 
WOW! What an exhilarating post of yours....

Anyway, here's the thrust of President G.W. Bush's address at the AEI last night --contrary to the Zionist spinmeisters' spiel, the war on Iraq is all about Israel:

story.news.yahoo.com;

Excerpt:

Success in Iraq could also begin a new stage for Middle Eastern peace and set in motion progress towards a truly democratic Palestinian state.

The passing of Saddam Hussein's regime will deprive terrorist networks of a wealthy patron that pays for terrorist training and offers rewards to families of suicide bombers. And other regimes will be given a clear warning that support for terror will not be tolerated.

But without this outside support for terrorism, Palestinians who are working for reform and long for democracy will be in a better position to choose new leaders, true leaders who strive for peace, true leaders who faithfully serve the people. A Palestinian state must be a reformed and peaceful state that abandons forever the use of terror.

For its part, the new government of Israel, as the terror threat is removed and security improves, will be expected to support the creation of a viable Palestinian state and to work as quickly as possible toward a final status agreement. As progress is made toward peace, settlement activity in the occupied territories must end.

And the Arab states will be expected to meet their responsibilities to oppose terrorism, to support the emergence of a peaceful and democratic Palestine, and state clearly they will live in peace with Israel.

The United States and other nations are working on a road map for peace. We are setting out the necessary conditions for progress toward the goal of two states, Israel and Palestine, living side by side in peace and security. It is the commitment of our government and my personal commitment to implement the road map and to reach that goal.
[...]
________________________________

As I once put it, Bush's foible is his honesty... On the eve of throwing hundreds of thousands of American soldiers into the Mideast cauldron, it's the President's duty to tell them the truth. If Americans are gonna risk their lives in Iraq, at least, they should be told why. Pro-Israel mouthpieces have relentlessly claimed that the war's got nothing to do with Israel --no, it ain't Israel's war! It's about WMD! Granted, it's about oil! It's about our SUV-based way of life! Bullshit. At last, the President set the record straight: the war on Iraq is to be the linchpin of the US's grand re-engineering scheme for the Middle East. So far so good. However, I'm afraid the US's candid optimism about a "born-again Middle East" will not cut it with the Arab street --and public opinion at large... Who is foolish enough to believe that the Palestinians will be offered a HONORABLE state after the war? It's not just about a VIABLE state! Of course, the US has the means to cater to a rump Palestine of four million souls --it shouldn't be that hard for the richest country to splurge on Palestinian shantytowns --but what of JERUSALEM? Palestinian freedom fighters have not fought and died for fifty years just to end up as a soulless enclave hosting casinos and gambling halls for retired IDF officers....

Gus