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Politics : Foreign Policy Discussion Thread -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?

To: Nadine Carroll who wrote (4766)	2/27/2003 6:48:07 PM
From: Hawkmoon	Respond to of 15987

There are still many degrees of rudeness in English above "Shut up". Indeed... But while these "linguistic experts" are sitting here trying to downplay Chirac's Faux Pas, they have utterly ignored the context behind it.. I say who cares if he said "shut up", or that "they have missed a fine opportunity to be quiet.."?? It equates to a brazen attempt to quash any dissent from Eastern European nations.. And it was a defacto demand that these nations fall in line behind France and Germany, as if Chirac perceived he had some right to demand them of them... And I don't believe he has apologized yet.. (at least a quick netquery showed none). So Zonder, and everyone else, should spend less time analyzing "the how" and focus more on "the why"... And now for another perspective on the issue: scrappleface.com Chirac Offers New EU Members 'Freedom of Silence' (2003-02-18) -- Jacques Chirac last night offered "liberté de silence" (freedom of silence) to the 13 nations which are candidates for European Union (EU) membership. "One of the great things about the European Union is that you'll never have to speak your mind," said the French President. "Just listen to what France says, and agree. That's why we call it a Union. We're all together." Chirac expressed concern that the candidate-nations may not realize they have this freedom because they have publicly supported the position of the United States with regard to Iraqi disarmament. "In our orientation class," said M. Chirac, "These nations will learn that we call this organization L'Union européenne, or L'UE...never EU, which of course means Etats-Unis (United States)." He conceded that it sometimes takes a while for new member nations to learn their proper places, and how to enjoy the freedom of silence, "but one would think some of these Eastern European nations would be good at it." Hawk

To: Nadine Carroll who wrote (4766)	2/28/2003 4:51:23 AM
From: zonder	Read Replies (2) \| Respond to of 15987

How would you translate "Tait toi!" - as "Shut up!" or "Be quiet!"? I already replied to this question: I translated "se taire" as "to shut up", but I have to admit that it translates better into "to keep quiet" as there is "fermer sa gueule" (literally, to shut up one's face) that's way above in the scale of rudeness, and that's the phrase for "to shut up"). Since then, I also looked it up in the dictionary: "Taire" (fr) - "Hush" (eng) www.langtolang.com And here is Hachette-Online (the site is very slow, but it is worth the wait): francophonie.hachette-livre.fr taire v. I. v. tr. 1. Ne pas dire. Taire un secret. 2. Fig. Ne pas manifester, ne pas exprimer. Taire sa douleur. II. v. pron. 1. Garder le silence, s'abstenir de parler. Taisez-vous, votre bavardage me fatigue. -- Ne pas révéler, passer sous silence. Se taire sur un point. 2. (Sujet n. de chose.) Cesser de se faire entendre. Les canons se sont tus. 3. (Avec ellipse du pronom.) Faire taire: imposer le silence à; fig. empêcher de s'exprimer, de se manifester. Une indemnisation a fait taire le mécontentement. If you need help in understanding the above, I will be happy to help. As you can see above, "taisez-vous" (the plural-'you' form of "tais-toi", the phrase you have asked me to translate, is "keep silent": "Garder le silence, s'abstenir de parler". The definition of "se taire" is very clear - "to be quiet". It is not "to shut up", for which "se fermer la gueule" is the translation. There are still many degrees of rudeness in English above "Shut up". I am sure there are. One of them being punching the guy in the nose. But that is not the point. The point is that "se taire" means "to be quiet". End of story. I would go for "Shut up". And you would be just as wrong as I initially was. I don't know what your level of French is, but I doubt if it is so good you can dispute dictionaries, not to mention the author of this article who seems pretty well-versed in the subject.