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Politics : Foreign Affairs Discussion Group -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?


To: rich evans who wrote (78748)3/1/2003 4:57:49 PM
From: TigerPaw  Respond to of 281500
 
I don't think the decision is a matter of fallacies but of risk analysis
But the arguments are riddled with fallacies.
Government and other studies have given estimates of the deaths and economic damage from use of a WMD by terrorists in the US. It varies according to the weapon with biological the worst. But you are talking 10,000 to 1 mill deaths and costs of hundreds of billions to our economy. So lets use 100,000 deaths and 250 bill.

I have to start by saying I doubt your figures, and there are no sources given so I can't check them. That by itself is not a fallacy but it does not make for a strong case. The premise that non conventional attacks are worse than has been experienced is not borne out by past events. The 1995 nerve gas attack in the Tokyo subway (5 simultaneous releases in very crowded conditions with little chance of escape), where there was no anticipation and no ready response was not as catastrophic as you might allege. sos.se The studies of biological attack also indicate that they are likely to be much more confined than your figures suggest. rand.org There was, after all, a terrorist biological anthrax attack already to give some perspective on the magnitude of the cost and disruption.


The presidents job is to protect us and our security. Already, the capital, whitehouse, WTC and pentagon have been attacked. War has been declared by video tapes, writings and spoken word by BinLaden and his group. Labs forr WMD have been found in Afgan. So how much of evidence should we need to act against anyone who has WMD and is or may cooperate,assist,give safe haven etc? A scintilla, some, enough for a reasonable issue of fact, preponderance, clear-cogent-convincing, enough so to be not clearly erroneous, or beyond a reasonable doubt.


The fallacy in this section is mostly contained in So how much of evidence should we need to act against anyone who has WMD. This is some form of the Hasty Generalization fallacy where a specific case is presented and then assumed to apply to all others. Even worse, I don’t think even you see the need to attack every country which has either chemical or biological weapons, which is most of Europe, Russia, China, India, Austrialia, and probably Tonga. The Spotlight fallacy also seems to apply.

These are different legal standards of evidence.
Now you are getting into predicates that aren’t true. None of what you said is any kind of legal standard of evidence and so no comparison can be made on that basis.

With these kind of death and damages possible, I would submit that only some evidence is required before we must act. These acts are to prevent possibilities not probabilities.
In this example you are presenting a novel fallacy of understatement. You have switched the wording to an argument that is so vague that it cannot be disagreed one way or the other. On the surface it would seem that something is possible and some unspecified action could be taken since it’s only something that could happen,. Of course we could act, we could buy duct tape and newspaper, or we could go to war, the scale of the argument is completely hidden by the innocuous pronouns. You are trying to tie it into the rather extreme predictions of death and destruction that began this post. Rather than a fallacy you seem to want to step away from definitely claiming that not going to war will result in 250 billion in treasury and a million lives . It would then be as easy to step forward if one were to agree than any possible action whatsoever is acceptable with the most extreme again.

Preemption is part of warfare. We are already at war. So if we act and stop Iraq's WMD and any possible cooperation with terrorists and also start a democratization of the mideast to try and change the area, a breeding ground for terrorists to a democratic area, then we are doing a lot to protect the US from these horrible possibilities.
The step forward! Once again you are back to the horrible possibilities of $250billion and a million lives, even though only the tiniest of traces of possibilities was all that you asked your reader to buy into. I’m not sure that’s a fallacy so much as a con job. This reveals a strange contradiction, if preemption is a part of war, and we are already at war, did we already preempt? I would say that this actually a Red Herring fallacy to make the reader appear to have agreed with preemption, because the reader already agreed with war, because the reader already agreed that some tiny thing could be done on the basis of the slimmest of possibilities.

A risk work taking IMO.
an opinion.

But many other's feel the consequences will be the opposite and the risk is to great regardless of the risks of inaction and potential American deaths and economic loss from use of WMD here and in fact many believe that attacking Iraq will just speed up and make for a greater chance of WMD in US. All fair opinions and debatable. But fallacies have nothing to do with it.
Here, as they say, you are showing your big but. A quick recount of possible counters can steer your reader to rebuttals that you are best prepared for.

In the very strictest of sense your post can be compressed to:

I don't think the decision is a matter of fallacies but of risk analysis. (Here is an example of a risk analysis). All fair opinions and debatable. But fallacies have nothing to do with it


This is less a fallacy than a misconstructed argument. A decision cannot be a fallacy, it can be right or wrong or in between, but only the argument for the decision can be a fallacy. In a sense you are tying the decision (to go to war) to an associated topic (Whether the arguments are made in a logical fashion). This could be termed the Apples and Oranges fallacy.

TP



To: rich evans who wrote (78748)3/1/2003 6:54:44 PM
From: FaultLine  Respond to of 281500
 
don't think the decision is a matter of fallacies but of risk analysis

nice post, rich evans... :o)

thx,
--fl



To: rich evans who wrote (78748)3/1/2003 8:38:58 PM
From: KLP  Respond to of 281500
 
Thank you for a wonderful post, rich evans! One has to continue to ask themselves what kind of people don't "get this?" And a greater question is WHY don't they want to understand it?

Already, the capital, whitehouse, WTC and pentagon have been attacked. War has been declared by video tapes, writings and spoken word by BinLaden and his group. Labs for WMD have been found in Afgan. So how much of evidence should we need to act against anyone who has WMD and is or may cooperate,assist,give safe haven etc?