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Politics : Foreign Affairs Discussion Group -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?


To: Dayuhan who wrote (79143)3/3/2003 2:19:25 AM
From: Condor  Respond to of 281500
 
Thats some mighty fine writing/thinking there Steve. I would hope some of your items get more exposure than just FADG?

C



To: Dayuhan who wrote (79143)3/3/2003 6:20:58 AM
From: Sig  Read Replies (1) | Respond to of 281500
 
Re Game theory:
Excellent discussion overall ..............
<<<< The United States stands in an ambivalent position when faced with this equation. The
US, more than any other nation, stands to gain from the establishment of some degree
of order in the world. Our business interests span the globe; trade is our lifeblood,
millions of our citizens live abroad. The order that we require can only exist through the
voluntary adoption by responsible nations of a basic framework of rules governing
relations among states>>>>
Confining this to the immediate problem of Iraq, there is nearly complete agreement
even among Arab nations that Saddam should be displaced as the soul voice and for the reasons stated.
The French , however have the most to lose per capita if he is displaced because they would probably lose the sole right and present agreements to develop one of Iraq's most important oil regions.
The US could also argue that our trade is more important to other nations than it is to us
When Russia has a bad growing season , access to our wheat or corn can save much starvation
Africa is in desperate shape without access to our Aids drugs and so on.
However it is very easy for other Nations, preferring not to admit to the usefulness of trade
with the US, to look upon it as profiteering, something we do internally in regard to fuel prices
and electric costs in California

<<<. Such rules cannot be unilaterally imposed, even by a superpower: any attempt to impose them would not only fail to achieve the goal of an of an ordered world community, but would cause disorder on an epic scale.
And that, for the US, is the quandary. We have more to gain than anyone, in the long term, from the existence of an orderly framework for conflict resolution. Yet many Americans refuse to accept even the possibility of submitting to a set of rules that we did not create, and which might at some point bind us when we do not wish to be bound. The rules must bind all, or they bind none. If they bind none, we will ultimately
have chaos The manner in which we choose to resolve this conflict will largely define our future as a nation, and may be the single most significant factor defining the medium-term future of the world. That’s a responsibility that some among us take rather lightly, in my opinion.>>>

The general rules of conduct for humanity have been agreed to by the Geneva Convention and by the United Nations. Which state among other things, that leaders should not torture, starve or kill their own citizens or captured soldiers of another nation. The UN has no way to directly enforce its own "rules" and apparently can only make recommendations to those Nations who have enough capability or desire to enforce the rules.
Iraq has broken those rules for over ten years and through 18 Resolutions and the UN is still in a quandary as to what should be done about it, even while being 100% in agreement Iraq has violated and still is violation the rules
If they object to the US voluntering to enforce the rules they should either change the rules to make them non-applicable to rogue nations or set up an enforcement agency to carry out military action when that is the
only action which would force obedience to their rules.
And that of course, would establish a World Leader who would have to appoint some nation to execute the
proper military action for which they would have set up another set of rules.
So now we have N Korea resigning from the UN and threatening the world with nuclear confrontation.
Which country would the UN appoint to handle the problem?. I would suggest France- who has proposed evoking their unilateral right to veto and prevent the US from taking any (un appproved) military action to handle Iraq. They will not succeed in doing that, but can say "I told you so" if things go wrong.

Althgether this a stinking merrygound of debate as to who is going to get the blame if Saddam uses those
banned weapons which he denies having but which seem to be intact and buried somewhere the inpectors have not looked yet
This is one reason the US has reserved to itself the right to take unilateral action- because the UN has no enforcement capability.
Alternately. we can take a back seat in the matters of defense, let nuclear and WMD powers develop and
then call upon the UN to take care of the problem. Yet who except the US has the power to resist or respond
to future nuclear threats - would France or Russia or China take care of the problem ? Or would they cast their veto and assign to Spain to take out N Korea, while guaranteeing to protect them?.
In summary:
There has been too much talk and not enough action, new global agreements are badly needed.
Arab nations near Iraq are not afraid of the US proposed action ( we have been there before without harming them and even gave Kuwait back to the Kuwaitis) - they are afraid that Saddam will use his banned weapons on their country.
Sig



To: Dayuhan who wrote (79143)3/3/2003 9:29:26 AM
From: JohnM  Respond to of 281500
 
The only solution I can see to this problem lies in the one element that not one response to my question mentioned: multilateral involvement.

Whether one agrees or disagrees with this argument, Steven, and I agree, this is about as well formulated a version of this argument as I have read. Bar none. I see that Condor hopes you try to do something more with these thoughts than simply post them here. I heartily, once again, agree.



To: Dayuhan who wrote (79143)3/3/2003 11:35:14 AM
From: Ilaine  Read Replies (1) | Respond to of 281500
 
A game theory strategy that can be summarized as "kill or enslave everybody that isn't one of your group" works pretty well, too, qv Genghis Khan, Rome, etc., etc., etc.



To: Dayuhan who wrote (79143)3/4/2003 1:56:01 AM
From: Jacob Snyder  Read Replies (1) | Respond to of 281500
 
Excuses for attacking, revisited:

In the 1780s, the newly-independant 13 colonies faced a similar situation. They saw that, unless all the colonies gave up power to a new Federal Government, that soon Massachussets would erect tariff barriers against goods from New York; and Pennsylvania and Virginia would go to war over who owned the Ohio Valley; and Outsiders with Other Agendas (England, France, Spain) would make mischief. Negotiation between colonies (whether bilateral or multilateral), depending on good will, hoping for the best, autarchy in each colony, any voluntary mechanism for conflict resolution, none of these would suffice. So, they created something New.

Reading your posts, I think you are groping towards the same conclusions the NeoConservatives are. The Hawks in the Bush Administration say:

1. for our National Security, we are obligated to establish a code of conduct for all nations. There can be no exceptions, this Code must be globally enforced, or the terrorists will have a Safe Haven and build WMD and use them on us.
2. this code of conduct regulates, not just how nations treat each other, but internal matters as well (weapons technology, who and how many of their own a government can kill, etc.)
3. the necessity of making this Code is so pressing, we can't wait to get multilateral agreement; we can't even wait till we get consensus among our core allies (NATO, Japan, S. Korea), we have to decide unilaterally and act now
4. and since nobody else has the will and power to do it, we also have to enforce these rules, unilaterally.
5. the enforcement has to be proactive. The potential crime is so harmful, the criminals must be arrested before they do it.

You also, see a need for an "orderly framework for conflict resolution". The main difference is, you want the rules to be made and enforced by committee, rather than a Hegemon. but otherwise, you see the same problem, and the same basic solution.

And really, what you and the NeoCons are talking about, is something so ambitious, it's the most Utopian Idea in Foreign Relations. You are talking about an embryonic World Government. That's what it amounts to, once you've created a set of rules for all nation-states to follow, and a formal structure to decide when the rules have been broken, and a mechanism to enforce those rules globally. The Law, Courts, and Army of a newborn World Government, that will take away from the 200 nation-states the power they have always had, the power to wage war against each other. Beginning with abolishing the power to wage war using WMD, but once that is established, it's a small step to outlawing all war.

Maybe the world is ready for an Idea that big. But it is unlikely to happen by consensus. All Ideas, and especially all Big Ideas, are pushed to Mass Adoption by an initial Champion, and/or a dedicated small cadre of Early Adopters and Enthusiasts. They push, prod, cajole, ridicule and threaten the laggards, gradually (and usually with much friction) overcoming the vast inertia of everyone else, and the fierce opposition of conservatives who benefit from the Status Quo. And sometimes they get crucified before their Idea goes on to Mass Adoption (that's an occupational hazard of any person/group/nation Championing a very New Idea).

President Bush is an Enthusiast. He got an Idea after 9/11, and his Idea is very very ambitious.

In order to succeed, the Early Adopter has to gain enough converts to share the burden, before he is exhausted. It's a race against time. The Champion is in an unstable position: being first, and acting alone, he takes huge risks, and has huge costs that the laggards don't have. He has to push forward relentlessly, recklessly, and get his Idea widely adopted, or at some point in the near/medium-term future, he will abruptly run out of his Venture Capital, and collapse (and his Idea will get tossed on the Ash-heap of History). Of course, pushing ahead recklessly is risky. The safest strategy is to be a Laggard, and only jump on the bandwagon when an Idea is clearly gaining momentum. Enthusiasts frequently slam abruptly into hard walls, rush over cliffs, and are always bloodied, even in victory.



To: Dayuhan who wrote (79143)3/6/2003 2:18:19 AM
From: greenspirit  Read Replies (1) | Respond to of 281500
 
The order that we require can only exist through the voluntary adoption by responsible nations of a basic framework of rules governing relations among states.

Good point Steven, something to consider is under what framework this adoption is to be declared valid? Shall the agreement of a dictator in Libya determine the framework of agreement? Shall one nation such as France, Russia or Germany, cast the deciding stop-vote?

The spirit of what you're saying seems reasonable; it's the process and the way you define 'unilateral' which is suspect. In the U.N. today, one nation on the Security Council can cast a vote and vanquish the others. The process and structure gives the same power you fear America will use unilaterally, to other nations. In matters of war, 100% agreement will rarely occur. Less than that, the claim that "they are acting unilaterally" can always be made.

The precise adoption of what constitutes the framework of consensus is where the struggle begins and ends.

America rebuilt Europe with the Marshall Plan, formed NATO, and expressed the hope of collective security in the United Nations. America has taken the lead and will continue to take the lead in assuming the responsibility of defending freedom and democracy. It's a responsibility only we can bear. Others are simply not capable of shouldering this burden. With that responsibility an exercise in leadership is called for. Leadership is about creating the environment in which internal motivation to change becomes more likely to occur. Leadership at its core is about being a "change agent". However, in the final analysis, motivation to change must come from within. When faced with this challenge, we must accept the notion that not every nation will be persuaded to change. If the issue is important enough to our national security, we must force compliance and let history be the judge of whether we were right or wrong.

Every nation in the world wasn't attacked on 9/11. America was. That simple truth is what many forget when academically analyzing the decisions of whether we go to war.

Struggling to find the one perfect model we can point to and say "this is what justifies war" may give us a sense of stability and peace of mind, but, in the real dynamic changing world will live, it's a false state of mind, and nothing by a rough draft on paper.

"All models are wrong, some models show important correlations" is as true today as when Forrester said it 60 years ago.