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Pastimes : Ask God -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?


To: Berry Picker who wrote (34421)3/3/2003 12:39:50 PM
From: Greg or e  Read Replies (1) | Respond to of 39621
 
Weasel away Brian. The point is you deny Christ has a physical glorified body NOW don't you? Don't weasel anymore Brian, tell me what you believe now about the nature of the resurrection instead of pretending that you don't know what I'm talking about. Don't weasel about how you believe the early Church missed the whole return of Christ, the resurrection, and the Great white throne Judgement, but now 2000 yrs later you have come to set us straight? You have not shown that Christ's body changed in nature from physical to immaterial. 1 John 3:2 does not say that! Talk about being unteachable, I showed you that Christ Ascension was physical from the mount of Olives in Acts 1: and I showed you how His return would be to the same Mount of Olives from Zech 14:4 when His "FEET" will stand on it and it will split in two. No response? Is that because you are a blind guide trying to lead others into a pit? Forgive me if I pass Brian. As I said, you are the one departing from the faith.

Since you keep mentioning it, you and your dad should be very comfortable with your J.W. brothers. They deny that Christ has a physical body, and they believe He's already returned, only it was invisible. Sound familiar?

1 Corinthians 15:15
More than that, we are then found to be false witnesses about God, for we have testified about God that he raised Christ from the dead. But he did not raise him if in fact the dead are not raised.

Are the dead raised Brian? You say no, the Bible says yes! That makes you the false witness.

Matthew 7:15
"Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves.

Acts 20:29
I know that after I leave, savage wolves will come in among you and will not spare the flock.

1 John 4:1,6
Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world........We are from God, and whoever knows God listens to us; but whoever is not from God does not listen to us. This is how we recognize the Spirit of truth and the spirit of falsehood.



To: Berry Picker who wrote (34421)3/3/2003 5:54:56 PM
From: 2MAR$  Read Replies (1) | Respond to of 39621
 
The parousia, the “second coming” of Jesus, provided an explanation for the failure of an individual that some people professed to be the “messiah.” It allowed his followers to continue to believe in his mission and of the mission of others after him. Predictions and descriptions of doomsday abound, as do the revisions of timetables once the predicted date has passed . That Jesus did not come back "quickly," as promised, to judge mankind. The time has long past that one can claim Jesus will come back "quickly." Thus, what we have in Revelation 22:20 is a false prophecy....

These various statements reveal that the myth of the "second coming" was explained in different ways as the interval following Jesus' death lengthened .Apparently, the early Christian community was convinced of the imminent return of Jesus, as the Messiah, and the inauguration of the kingdom of God. It never happened . The expectation of Paul and the other New Testament authors was for the speedy arrival of the second coming in their generation. The use of "for yet a little while," "shortly," "the time is near," and "I am coming quickly" point to the utter failure of the predictions that Jesus was coming a second time to do what he did not accomplish the first time.

There was to be fulfillment within the lifetimes of certain individuals alive at the time Jesus made the promise and following upon certain cataclysmic events which were to be witnessed by that generation. These events never occurred and the time for their occurrence has long since passed .The second epistle of Peter is a late attempt to explain away the obvious fact that the second coming did not arrive at its appointed time. It should be noted that these "tribulations" were not fulfilled in the events of the years 66-73 C.E., the period of the First Jewish-Roman War. Jesus' own statement shows that the culmination of the "tribulation period" was to see the parousia, the second coming of Jesus (Mark 13:26; Matthew 24:3, 30), which certainly did not occur during the war nor subsequently.

The main task of the Messiah was to bring the world back to G-d, and to abolish all war, suffering and injustice from the world. Clearly, Jesus did not accomplish this. In order to get around this failure on the part of Jesus, Christians invented the doctrine of the "Second Coming." ..All the prophecies that Jesus did not fulfill the first time are supposed to be taken care of the second time around. However, the Jewish Bible offers absolutely no evidence to support the Christian doctrine of a "Second Coming."


This two-fold misapprehension of Jesus -- the nearness of the kingdom of heaven and his Messiahship - perpetuated his memory and created Christianity. Had not the disciples expected his second coming Christianity could never have come into being: even as a Jewish sect.. The Jews as a whole could not, however, follow after a belief based on so slight a foundation.. Yet again, through the preaching of his messianic claims, after he had failed to manifest himself to the world again, in his power and glory, he became, in spite of himself, a "sacrifice," a "ransom for many."

The success of the Christian claim or its failure rests to a very large extent on the theory of the second coming.. The Jews never had the concept of a second coming, and since it was the Jews themselves who first taught the notion of a Messiah, via the Jewish prophets, it seems quite reasonable to respect their opinion more than anyone else's.. the theory of the second coming is not based on Jewish tradition or sources, and is a theory born from desperation.

And he said to them, 'Truly, I say to you, there are some standing here who will not taste death before they see that the kingdom of God has come with power [en dunamei]'." - Mark 9:1 (Matthew 16:28 // Luke 9:27)

(This saying was) most likely...produced by early Christians who sought to reassure themselves of Christ's coming in glory as the years passed by with no parousia in sight. The idea of a second coming is a pure rationalization of Jesus' failure to function in any way as a Messiah, or to fulfill any of the prophecies of the Torah or the Prophets. The idea is purely a Christian invention, with no foundation in the Bible.

Jesus was decidedly mistaken in his theory of the approaching end of the world :

"Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand. [Matt. iv, 17.] "Ye shall not have gone over the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come." [Matt X, 23.] "There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom." [Matt. xvi, 28; Mark ix, 1.] "And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come ... Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled." [Matt. xxiv, 74-34; Luke xxi, 32.] "The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand." [Mark i, 15.] "So ye in like manner, when ye shall see these things come to pass, know that it is nigh, even at the doors. Verily I say unto you, that this generation shall not pass, till all these things be done." ["Mark xiii, 29-30.] "The hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, and shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation." ['John v, 28-29.]


Jesus was confident that the day of judgment was coming in the first century, but it has not come yet, nineteen hundred years later. This erroneous belief in the imminent end of the world had an important bearing upon his entire philosophy; for if the end of the world was so near it was far more important to prepare for life hereafter than to be concerned over mundane affairs. May we not view with doubt any of Jesus' teachings that depended upon his mistaken conception of the duration of the world?

If the Christians of the first centuries had foreseen that the second coming of Christ would not take place for eighteen hundred years, how much weaker an impression would this doctrine have made upon them than when they were expecting Him every hour, and were told to watch because He would come like a thief in the night, at an hour when they looked not for Him .

C.S. Lewis (1960)
"Say what you like," we shall be told, "the apocalyptic beliefs of the first Christians have been proved to be false. It is clear from the New Testament that they all expected the Second Coming in their own lifetime. And, worse still, they had a reason, and one which you will find very embarassing. Their Master had told them so. He shared, and indeed created, their delusion. He said in so many words, 'this generation shall not pass till all these things be done.' And he was wrong. He clearly knew no more about the end of the world than anyone else."

It is certainly the most embarassing verse in the Bible. Yet how teasing, also, that within fourteen words of it should come the statement "But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father." The one exhibition of error and the one confession of ignorance grow side by side....

The facts, then, are these: that Jesus professed himself (in some sense) ignorant, and within a moment showed that he really was so. To believe in the Incarnation, to believe that he is God, makes it hard to understand how he could be ignorant; but also makes it certain that, if he said he could be ignorant, then ignorant he could really be. For a God who can be ignorant is less baffling than a God who falsely professes ignorance. The answer of theologians is that the God-Man was omniscient as God, and ignorant as Man. This, no doubt, is true, though it cannot be imagined.


Rom 13:11-12 And that, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep: for now is our salvation nearer than when we believed. The night is far spent, the day is at hand: let us therefore cast off the works of darkness, and let us put on the armour of light.

"It is often claimed that the apostle, like other New Testament writers, expected the advent of Christ within a short time and that this expectation was reproduced in his teaching in the form of affirmation to that effect (cf. 1 Cor 7:29-31). Would not the events then prove that the apostle was mistaken not simply in his expectation but also in his teaching?"

The answer to this question would appear to reside in two considerations. (1) The New Testament does teach that the day of the Lord is at hand (cf. Phil 4:5; James 5:8; 1 Pet 4:7; Rev. 22:10-12,20). This is not to be interpreted, however, in the sense of imminence in our sense of that word, Paul himself who gives expression to this thought of nearness found occasion to warn against the supposition of imminence.

Thomas Aquinas (1274)
"This Gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in the whole world . . . and then shall the consummation come." But the Gospel of Christ is already preached throughout the whole world: and yet the consummation has not yet come. Therefore the Gospel of Christ is not the Gospel of the kingdom, but another Gospel, that of the Holy Ghost, is to come yet, like unto another Law." (Summa Theologica, vol. 2, 1292)

** Time for the Holy Spirit to come to the rescue ? Better give everything away to the poor now and become a Hindu...for that is what the Hindus have been teaching already for 1000's of years, hehe .

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