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Politics : DON'T START THE WAR -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?

To: zonder who wrote (15346)	3/4/2003 6:20:51 AM
From: 2MAR$	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 25898

Re women's right to vote - Did you know that women got the right to vote in MOST cantons (not all) of Switzerland in 1971? That is more than 40 years AFTER women had the right to vote in Turkey in 1929. What ? I had no idea , will have to learn about that one...just a typical American ... shows how much I know 'bout europe....but I can carry on a conversation with a topless lass on a riveria beach and act quite natural, nor does public nursing bother me, nor do I brawl at soccer games ...maybe not so typical? I say that the nation which eliminates spam & pop-up ads first over the internet , is the most civilized! ;-) nice link to the "timelines.info", thnx...also to note Women in Kuwait do not yet have the right to vote or to stand for election. In the United Arab Emirates, where the Parliament is officially appointed, neither men nor women have the right to vote or to stand for election.

To: zonder who wrote (15346)	3/4/2003 6:58:32 PM
From: Hawkmoon	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 25898

All states ARE EQUAL according to international law. You're discussing "form", I'm discussing "substance". And if you recall, despite the existence of Israel, I don't see Iraq acknowledging it's "legitimacy".. Thus, why should legitimacy be reciprocated by Israelis??? International law also says a lot of other things that no one abides by, or only adher to when it fits their agenda (as you accuse the US of doing).. And I say that the existing international law is dysfunctional, corrupted, and skewed to nations who have no accountability to their own people. And these are nations that have little respect for international law themselves. After all, how much respect for International Law did Saddam display when he invaded Kuwait?? And how much respect has the rest of the world show by permitting Saddam to avoid complying with binding UN resolutions.. Doesn't a law have to be enforced for it to be valid?? You can't put down a statutory code, write a binding UNSC resolution based upon it, and then only enforce whatever portion you find more ecnomically beneficial... That's neither law, nor justice. And such a law, arbitrarily enforced/ignored, is just as illegitimate as the the criminal governments being protected by such a scheme. As for Switzerland.. yes.. I would suggest that they were LESS legitimate than Turkey on the basis of substantive government. Of course, other factors apply, such as free and fair elections, which I'm not sure Turkey truly enjoyed at that early stage (but I'm not familiar with that period). You have no principles as to who you will deal with and who you won't (all depends on whether or not they offend your precious state). Au contraire.. If anything, I am stating that principles of government are more important than the mere existence of it. For example, I could care less if Turkey opts not permit our troops to enter their country. That's a democratic decision for which they obviously don't mind paying the economic price. That's their right as a parliament and they will either prosper or suffer at the polls when they come up for election. But that vote is an example of substance over form.. We don't like the result of the vote, and oviously we'll use our significant influence to request another amended vote, but we'll also acknowledge the decision of this LEGITIMATE government. And I do have principles as to who the US supports (although my elected officials often differ from my perspective) and that impacts my decisions at the polls. I think the US, and its electorate, has changed significantly over the past several decades. I don't believe that with today's media coverage, we're especially keen on supporting the Somozas or Pinochets of past decades. A true US foreign policy MUST involve continuing pressure to create democratic conditions and economic opportunity in these nations... You have no consistency in your civilized behaviour as a state. Oh.. Not like the consistent willingness to sell nuclear reactors to tyrants, and coddle every petty dictator around the world the French government displays.. Well, times change, just as threats and priorities... But the end goal is (or had better be) to create economically properous and educated societies that will buy our goods and hopefully our culture (at least to the extent we buy theirs).... Isn't it rather odd that there is no documented evidence of one valid democracy engaging in military conflict against another?? Maybe that says something about legitimacy and who actually recognizes it. Hawk