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Politics : PRESIDENT GEORGE W. BUSH -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?

To: Steve Dietrich who wrote (366291)	3/4/2003 8:05:19 PM
From: PROLIFE	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 769670

It is morally indefensible. tell God. you seem to like railing at Him..

To: Steve Dietrich who wrote (366291)	3/5/2003 7:02:22 AM
From: Johannes Pilch	Respond to of 769670

God commands genocide 400 years after the alleged evil. Dear me. He is God, and so 1000 years to Him are but a moment. It is most clear that He had promised to wipe out Amalek even back in Exodus (it was no backdated entry in Deuteronomy, as you so wrongfully claimed). He used His Chosen People to do just that after developing them in the years after the Exodus. He often uses nations to judge other nations. That is morally indefensible. It is morally perfect. Is genocide contrary to or compatible with our nature? It is certainly contrary to mine, but not to yours. Christ came to earth to provide me a Nature that is compatible with God. Human nature is such that without Christ, it is fit only to be utterly destroyed, just like the Amalekites were destroyed, and like you will surely become – should you persist in willful ignorance. In Numbers 31 Moses sends troops to exterminate the Midianites (because some of the Israelites are attracted to their women and this may lead to idolatry). The troops disobey Moses by taking the women and children prisoner. So Moses orders the women and children prisoners killed. Would you say Moses' killing of women and children prisoners is contrary to or compatible with our nature? It is certainly incompatible with my nature, but not with yours. Once again, the call for this destruction was given by God Himself to theocratic Israel. Not to me or to anyone alive today. That is exactly why you do not see anyone out to kill Midianites. It is no general command written in a book (as we see in the Quran), but rather a recounting of history. It is morally indefensible. Please. You are being purposefully ignorant here. The Midianites were dead wrong and they perished, just as you will perish should you persist in ignorance. God was simply cleaning house. He has done this plenty of times and in many ways does it even now. The Scriptures are very clear that He is going to do it again for keeps. If you have a problem with God’s punishing evil, I suggest you fall to your knees and question Him. You sigh so often, i'm starting to think you're Al Gore. And as I have shown, you think quite a lot of stuff that is complete hogwash.

To: Steve Dietrich who wrote (366291)	3/5/2003 7:04:19 AM
From: Johannes Pilch	Respond to of 769670

And this is a disingenuous argument because when i present you with a direct command in Deuteronomy to kill idolaters, you tell me it doesn't apply to you. Dear me. There is nothing disingenuous in my argument at all. You have just apparently never heard the truth here. Quite unlike you, I have actually read Deuteronomy, having committed large sections of it to memory. Unlike you, I get the dang thing right because I actually know what it says and I don’t be claiming crap was said only in Deuteronomy and not in Exodus when in fact it is in Exodus too. Read the text, not just some snippet of it you’ve clipped from a heathen website, but study the Deuteronomy 13 text in context of the rest of Deuteronomy-- especially including chapters 16 and 17. You obviously have not done this and that is why you are so consistently ignorant here. Should you do it you will discover that the Deut. 13 execution commands can only take place within the Mosaic system of Elders and the Jewish Court that later became known as the Sanhedrin. Well, stop sittin’ ‘roun’ ni and go own an’ look at it. I’ll wait fo ya. Go own. It is obvious that I do not exist within that system. The commands were written to theocratic Israel and not to me. So all this crap you tawkin’ is jess crap. So why are we talking about anything in the Old Testament? Because, once afriggin’gain, it is history. It is not mere history, but it is certainly history and obviously not some general command to anyone to go out and kill Midianites. No one can read Deuteronomy and then reasonably think it applies to him. Heck, we don’t even have a friggin’ Sanhedrin today to get the dang thang started. (sheesh maaan. You muss be crazy). So isn't [Deuteronomy] still law for Jews? Aren't their scriptures like the Muslim scripture in that they command infidels to be killed? Nope. Unlike the dang Quran, the Bible, including even Deuteronomy, has no general command wherein one can reasonably think one has divine freedom to go out and literally slaughter someone, being both judge and executioner. Even the commands in Deuteronomy require the guilty person to be brought before the Sanhedrin along with two or three independent witnesses. Guess friggin’ what? For Jews, that system was in effect right up to Christian times. We actually see it described in the New Testament. It is no longer in effect, and now your job is to tell why. I have given you much of the answer in the post just prior to this one. So now even you should be able to figure it out.

To: Steve Dietrich who wrote (366291)	3/5/2003 7:10:29 AM
From: Johannes Pilch	Respond to of 769670

Would you [kill idolaters if God Himself told you to do it?] Without even friggin’ missing a beat. But God has left His commands to me in the Scriptures and as I have shown, there is no such command there that can be reasonably interpreted as a command issued to any modern person. Wouldn't Abraham have been a better man had he refused to bind his son for slaughter? Abraham would have been a fool to refuse. Abraham actually believed God even above human life, believing that should he kill his son, God would simply raise him from the dead. That is called faith. Abraham knew God, and knew God could be trusted – no matter what. Is there no absolute right and wrong for the religious? Indeed there is, and it is literally defined by God Himself. This is a ridiculous argument. History is replete with worldwide Christian movements to kill and enslave people. The Crusades was not worldwide and neither was the Inquisition. Many other horrors occurred by people calling themselves Christian but were not done with any reasonable approval of the Scriptures – unlike what we see in the friggin’ Quran.

To: Steve Dietrich who wrote (366291)	3/5/2003 7:12:18 AM
From: Johannes Pilch	Respond to of 769670

Not dishonest. I was working from memory and clearly had exaggerated the case. But the point (though off point) stands. Riight. You did more than ‘exaggerate.’ What you really did is pretty friggin’ pathetic. You just didn’t know what you were talking about and yet you were telling all these lies about Deuteronomy and now you are trying to backpeddle. I’m gonna make you do the same dang thing soon with your claim that Deuteronomy was “magically discovered.” I’d like to see your proof. But for now, I wanna keep hammering on this issue. The Exodus Amalek story was about faith and fidelity…. In Deuteronomy we hear that Amalek had ambushed the Israelites and attacked the weak stragglers….They are very different stories. And the Deuteronomy story nicely rationalizes the facts on the ground at the time of its discovery in a way that Exodus does not. The fact is, both Exodus AND Deuteronomy speak of an attack on the Hebrews and both Exodus AND Deuteronomy curse the Amalekites and God promises to utterly destroy them. So the Deuteronomy writ against the Amalekites was clearly nothing new. Your point is so weak, I might easily concede that Exodus and Deuteronomy speak of two different occasions. That would only mean the Amalekites attacked twice during the Exodus or that Deuteronomy was back edited (as you erroneously think). As we have seen in the Exodus account, God both used the Hebrews to judge other nations and He promised to destroy the Amalekites. The repeat of the promise against Amalek that we find in Deuteronomy is nothing new, since God had already condemned Amalek as far back as Exodus. (ding) Yes i understand that for you right and wrong are the arbitrary will of a capricious and vindictive God having nothing to do whatsoever with our own nature. It is nothing to do with my Nature and everything to do with yours. I have peace with God and have no need to fear His wrath. So with this, more or less, being your point of view, what is your evidence that God is good and not contrary to our nature? He died to pay for my sins and to give me His Nature (instead of leaving me with only a corrupt and perishing nature like yours), so that I might escape the wrath to come.