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Politics : Formerly About Applied Materials -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?

To: JSwanson who wrote (68385)	3/9/2003 10:31:04 PM
From: Gary Ng	Respond to of 70976

JSWanson Re: I am done I can feel your frustration(I saw the same during the Bush press conference last week), it is the same frustration the rest of world(a significant part of it) feels, that why can't the other side see our lines of reasoning. The only difference would be because USA is so powerful(way ahead), we can only talk, demonstrate but whatever going to happen, will happen with real casualty. Whereas for you, it would be limited to "I am done". I don't agree with the comment that "it is pathetic" though as the discussion on this thread is rational and civil.

To: JSwanson who wrote (68385)	3/9/2003 10:39:58 PM
From: BWAC	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 70976

<America is a cess pool of corruption> Who implied that? America is fine. It is just the Bush and his lying Crony political machine that is the cesspool of corruption. Politicians can lie about many things, which over time are often immaterial in nature or damaging to no one but themselves, and not draw the public's serious disgust. It happens every day. However Bush lying the country into a political gain war has crossed the line. He is 2 feet submerged in a cesspool, ignoring the serious consequences of world opinion disapproval and pre-emptive war precedents that may well be set. All which could materially affect our future. Once the unilateral Pre-emptive all out war precedent is set, then there is no looking back. Any country, any despot leader, any terrorist group, any dictator, or even North Korea could deem they are next and launch a pre-emptive first strike using the Bush World Domination precedent as justification. And they could do so using the VERY SAME logic and reasoning as Resident Bush is spouting about America defending against Iraq. (Enemy, Weapons of Mass Destruction, Hostile government, Despot Leader, regime change, etc.) Before you put me on ignore, please answer this simple question: If our country is right to launch a Pre-emptive war against UN objections, then would Country X be right to launch a similar Pre-emptive war against the US if they felt threatened by our warships cruising off the coast or some threatening rhetoric out of Washington?

To: JSwanson who wrote (68385)	3/9/2003 10:52:59 PM
From: Sun Tzu	Respond to of 70976

You don't find it disturbing that forged documents were submitted to UN as proof that Iraq is developing nukes? I am surprised. I would think that a pro-war person would be more disgusted by the deception than one who did not buy into it in the first place. And whoever said America is a cesspool? The most I have said is that our government is no worse and no better than most. And I have repeatedly said that Americans (read the people) are much better than most nations. So what is your beef with this? That I don't buy into the propaganda of us being the champion of justice and freedom? Please, take a look at all the regimes we have supported and continue to support so long as they pay up. In a dictatorship patriotism is defined as loyalty to the King. Over here, it is loyalty to the constitution and to the people. The administration is just a temporary executive of our wishes. They are the ones who should listen to us. The people are under no obligation to listen to them. Sun Tzu

To: JSwanson who wrote (68385)	3/10/2003 11:48:41 AM
From: chomolungma	Read Replies (3) \| Respond to of 70976

JSwanson, You wrote. I am done. I don't blame you. I tried to read the exchanges of the last few days and finally just quit. It's infinitely more difficult to defend than it is to attack and criticize. The contempt for Bush and his administration runs so deep on this thread that it is impossible to overcome it with any amount of words. You will find that there have been more nice things said about Stalin's regime on this thread than the current administration. I'm not kidding! Furthermore, as you noted, the disdain for America is firmly rooted here too. After reading this thread you would think that America hasn't done anything in the last 50 years that wasn't self-serving, morally despicable or downright evil. This country, by these accounts, is responsible for almost every problem in the world today and if it isn't directly responsible it is culpable by its inaction. It helps to remind yourself that the politics of most on this thread are on the extreme fringe of the political spectrum. Years ago I learned that people are basically positive or negative in how they view life and the world. I actually believe this is mostly inherited and what portion isn't is essentially fixed at an early age. These people can see problems in everything, but more importantly they see the large historical trends as negative. I am in the other camp. I see the future as being brighter now than it has been at any time in my lifetime and I think the role of America has generally been positive and will continue to be so. See? Even I have to qualify my remarks with the word "generally" because I don't want to have to defend the treatment of the American Indian or the fire bombing of Dresden. You know these thoughts are flying through the minds of most who are reading this. Most here could find fault in the color of the sunset. So, like you, I'm pretty much done with this discussion. There is nothing new here. Not much to learn. I just can't dig through the prejudices anymore. I'd rather spend the next month arguing about college basketball than arguing whether President Bush is worse than Adolph Hitler. I have to laugh because that subject is actually open to debate here! What's wrong with this picture and why am I in it?