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Pastimes : Ask God -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?

To: Jamey who wrote (34497)	3/12/2003 9:40:48 PM
From: Greg or e	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 39621

"Did he ever say the world, both Christian and heathen would see his return?" Try reading the whole thing and not just the parts you like Jim. Rev 1: Look, he is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see him,even those who pierced him; and all the peoples of the earth will mourn because of him. So shall it be! Amen. I am the Alpha and the Omega," says the Lord God, "who is, and who was, and who is to come, the Almighty." Acts 1: After he said this, he was taken up before their very eyes, and a cloud hid him from their sight. 10They were looking intently up into the sky as he was going, when suddenly two men dressed in white stood beside them. 11"Men of Galilee," they said, "why do you stand here looking into the sky? This same Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven, will come back in the same way you have seen him go into heaven."

To: Jamey who wrote (34497)	3/14/2003 8:50:16 PM
From: Berry Picker	Read Replies (2) \| Respond to of 39621

James RE>>What is it that I am not saying to open the eyes that do not see and the ears that do not hear?<< There are none so blind as those who WILL NOT see. Unbelievers point to the "FACT" that the bible is "interpreted" in a different way by everyone who reads it. By this they excuse themselves from any obligation to God to study or obey 'because' the truth can not be known for a certainty. IT IS A PRETTY GOOD ARGUMENT ************* Except ************ That the argument is completely invalid. It is known as an "argument from abuse" and is classically known as a fallacy. A fallacy is false reasoning. AND because the premises are mis-stated they are therefore false. The futuristic return of Christ - which almost everyone believes - is also a fallacy. Fallacies are usually based on twisted precepts or conditions but not always. Here is an example of GOOD LOGIC.. Premises 1. All dogs have tails 2. All dogs have whiskers 3. All dogs have fur 4. All dogs have 4 legs 5. All dogs have wet noses 6. All dogs are warm blooded Observations Felix has all of those things Conclusion Therefore Felix is a dog Now that is GOOD and Excellent LOGIC Felix is a CAT however but good logic is essential to reach correct conclusions. In other words - even though the conclusion was wrong. The logic was good. Now if you can get to a wrong conclusion using good logic How can anyone hope to get there using illogical methods? You see James - most 'christians' refuse to even get to logic. They insist that the Holy Spirit has shown them the right conclusions and will not even look at their false doctrines and premises. My example above uses correct premises and yet reaches an incorrect conclusion Men use logic because they can be sure that using false premises will reach false conclusions. IF only one more premise had been added... 7. All dogs bark Then the "meow" of Felix would have given it away that Felix could not be a dog. We might not yet know what Felix is but we can know that Felix does not bark and cannot fulfill premise #7 And Conclude Felix is NOT a dog because all dogs bark. The problem with futurist is they do not want to look at #7 They look at all the other 6 and run like the devil from #7 and #8 and #9 and the incredible pile of scriptural evidence that the futurist view point is unbiblical. Your question to me - which is basically - WHY?? Is to be answered another way... What if you were a pet salesman and had an order for a dog? You have dear old Felix for sale and so... you do not WANT to look at the obvious! Felix is a dog and everyone knows that so people like us are wrong. Why not ask these questions. 1.What did Jesus do wrong that the religious leaders failed to understand that He was not a heretic in need of drastic and final excommunicated to protect the people? 2. Why did the miracles not convince the temple church that Jesus was God? 3. Why would God allow the “church” to be so wrong about who Christ was and allow fishermen, tax collectors and whores to understand? 4. The church (Temple system or otherwise) as a whole could not be wrong so why not trust their decisions about Christ and others who have been condemned? You are dealing with people who have something else at stake other than God’s truth. The unbelievers are using GOOD LOGIC when they say the bible is worthless reading if Spiritual Truth is the goal. Premises There are many interpretations of the bible Truth can not teach opposite things Observation People interpret opposite things Christ came back already – Christ did not come back yet. Conclusion The bible is worthless if seeking absolute truth. They have used GOOD LOGIC BUT they have reached another false conclusion. Felix is not a dog and the Bible is not 'worthless' literature. The problem with the above is again insufficient premises but also a sneaky misuse of terms of premises. There are more than one kind of TERMS of premises…. Look at these 2 different statements: All dogs bark Some dogs bark If only “SOME” dogs bark then Felix may in fact still be a dog BECAUSE ‘maybe’ some dogs MEOW. It was only because “ALL” dogs bark and the ‘presumption’ that because Felix makes meow noises that it was likely Felix never makes a BARKS. It was never proven that Felix does not bark – it was presumed. You can see that finding truth – when a simple example of proving ‘doghood’ can prove complex that Biblical truth can become very difficult especially when men have so many other agendas at heart. Look at this then: NO dogs MEOW If that were one of the premises then we have an IRON CLAD case that “FELIX” is NOT a dog. We Observed a characteristic on Felix that is definitely OPPOSITE to one of the TERMS of the premises. The only way we could be wrong is IF the premise or our observation was wrong….. What if we only “thought” that the meow noise came from Felix? How do we prove that NO dogs Meow – did we listen to every dog on earth to make sure? This is where people like MARS can play all day!!! The truth is that LOGIC is only as good as it’s application and illogical people will rarely blame their applications and misuse of facts and observations never mind their presumptive conclusions. The problem is not YOUR presentation James except in the ways that you are also Guilty of the same offence – that offence being… People attempt to defend their own beliefs and pride. That is what those who crucified Christ and all those who created for the church the many martyrs have always done BECAUSE they have felt a burden to defend what they thought or hoped was true they - Committed the greatest of sins – calling truth blasphemy – condemning the innocent. Matthew 12:6 But I say unto you, That in this place is one greater than the temple. 7 But if ye had known what this meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice, ye would not have condemned the guiltless. Very few are will to allow God to do the work including you and I. We all have a 'mission' of defending our own temples. That blinds men to change and teachability. Men would rather win a debate than discover truth and repent. You and I at one time believed that the second coming would be future. We were taught that - we did not discover that ourselves from the bible. Paul was taught - he was mistaught and when he was stopped by the blinding light of Christ - it was then and only then that he could go back and look at the whole matter again without the baggage of 'winning' or defending his 'temple' or religion You see the unbelievers make wrong premises by false terms. When you restate the premise above .. 1.There are many interpretations of the bible 2.Truth can not teach opposite things The premise "there are many" is an invalid term - it is only an observation. One must presume that all 'interpretations' are equally valid to make it work. If one states the premise this way instead: 1. There are False interpretations of the bible 2. Truth cannot teach what is false THEREFORE The bible is false More people begin to see that the argument is invalid. It is invalid for even more reasons but the more you conform to the rules of logic the more easily people begin to see what is fallacious and what is not. To say 1. NO dogs Meow Felix Meows Therefore Feliz is NOT dog. Is simple - we do not need all those other premises that cloud the issue. Unfortunately when you try to get futurist to look at the simple they run to the complex to hide from the simple truth that futurism is unbiblical. Allow me to restate. 1. The bible teaches that Christ would return within 40 years 2. Christ did not return yet. Therefore The bible is false teaching OR 1. The bible teaches that Christ would return within 40 years 2. The bible is truth Therefore Futurism is false Most futurist insist that "2. Christ did not return yet" rather than deal with "1. The bible teaches that Christ would return within 40 years" Because many will admit that Christ did teach He would return. Many have said that the apostles and early church expected Christ but were wrong. They will even say that Christ was wrong when He said the following... Matthew 10:23 But when they persecute you in this city, flee ye into another: for verily I say unto you, Ye shall not have gone over the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come. Christ said VERILY I SAY Futurist say MISTAKENLY HE SAID** How can you fix people who would rather call Christ a liar than believe? Don't blame yourselves but rather rejoice because it has been given... Mark 4:11 And he said unto them, Unto you is given the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all things are done in parables: Rejoice - they are not your problem James - they are the norm. James - you are likely the only one who will sort through this post. Forgive me for not spending much time organizing or improving it but I trust you will sort it out and hear what I am saying Matthew 22:14 For many are called, but few chosen. Without the spirit we can know nothing - but by trampling on logic even some who have been born again - will miss much of what God has revealed. They have become the unteachable defenders of false doctrines of the modern temple :-)