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Politics : DON'T START THE WAR -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?


To: jlallen who wrote (21866)3/16/2003 7:45:27 PM
From: Karen Lawrence  Read Replies (4) | Respond to of 25898
 
the History Guy? your brother?..158,000 Iraqi men women and children dead during and shortly after the Gulf War: War's toll: 158,000 Iraqis and a researcher's position
By Thomas Ginsberg
Inquirer Staff Writer
philly.com time, Beth Osborne Daponte will be leaving her calculator off.

A senior researcher at Pittsburgh's Carnegie Mellon University, Daponte was the Census Bureau demographer who postulated in 1991 that 158,000 Iraqi men, women and children died during and shortly after the Persian Gulf war. In return, she was reprimanded by her government, and saw her report rewritten and her career sidetracked.

Today, with another war in Iraq a possibility, Daponte says she has no intention of trying to estimate Iraqi deaths again. Revealing finely tuned cynicism, she wonders whether it would be worth the stress.

"On some level, is it going to matter if it's 10,000 dead versus 80,000 dead?" Daponte said, shedding her scientific objectivity. "Hopefully, these would be deaths that effective diplomacy could avoid. The question is, have we exhausted all effective diplomatic alternatives?"

The casualty issue is rising again, almost 11 years to the day after Daponte's body count caused a national ruckus after the Pentagon said there was no way to estimate it. By her count, based on demographic projections and ground-level accounts, more Iraqi civilians than soldiers perished during and after the war.

Though many experts agree that Americans' support for war may hinge on U.S. deaths, some also ponder how many Iraqis may be killed without damaging the war's goals and its public support.

"I suspect most conservatives would not be terribly upset at a lot of Iraqi casualties," said Ted Galen Carpenter, a foreign-policy expert at the Cato Institute. "But... the administration is serious about keeping them low... . Its strategy is portrayed as a liberation of Iraq, and if there is a large number of civilian casualties it will be difficult to maintain that image."

Some independent analysts have speculated that 50,000 Iraqi civilians could die in a U.S. invasion. But others, including Daponte and Galen Carpenter, say there are far too many variables to make such a prediction. One suggests it won't matter much anyway, compared with Americans' deaths.

"As far as I can see, Americans don't care about foreign casualties," said John Mueller, an Ohio State University political scientist and expert on U.S. public opinion about war.

"When we ask people point-blank in polls, they say it does matter. But the polling evidence suggests it really doesn't in the end," said Mueller, offering an example: "How many American lives is worth one Somali life? Not one."

Such assertions touch nerves across the spectrum from peace activists to war proponents.

Peter Brooks, a military analyst at the Heritage Foundation, rejects the notion that Americans don't care about foreign deaths, saying U.S. war planners "are always trying to minimize collateral damage."

Instead, he blames Saddam Hussein for the most egregious killing of Iraqis, civilians or not.

"He gassed the Kurds, he has probably killed over 100,000 of his own people, and he has used people as human shields," Brooks said. "I think U.S. military planners do take [Iraqi casualties] into account... . And we're in a better position this time because of better precision-guided munitions."

The issue was just as sensitive in 1991. Then, the U.S. goal was not killing civilians but ejecting Hussein's army from Kuwait. Still, the Pentagon afterward avoided making any estimate of Iraqi casualties; its only official number was U.S. military deaths - 146 soldiers. Iraq has only given a number of 1.7 million killed since 1989 by sanctions and war, a number most U.S. experts doubt.

Daponte, a staff demographer at the Census Bureau, was assigned to estimate Iraq's population as part of her job of producing country-by-country population estimates.

The University of Chicago-trained sociologist says she got permission to speak to any expert and use the best data from any source. She recalls she was given a few months, rather than the usual few days. She says she expected that her findings, like all others, would be printed in an unclassified report.

Her conclusion: 86,194 men, 39,612 women, and 32,195 children died in one year as a direct and indirect result of the U.S.-led attack and the ensuing Shiite and Kurdish rebellions.

About a quarter, 40,000, were Iraqi soldiers killed in combat.

The rest were civilians, including 13,000 who got caught in the cross fire. About 70,000 civilians died after the war due mainly to the destruction of water and power plants.

"I would do the work differently now... . We'd present the numbers as a range instead of a single estimate," she said. "But I still stand by those numbers."

When a Greenpeace activist made her tally public, the Census Bureau balked. The White House and Defense Department had just said no Iraqi casualty estimate was possible. Now a lowly number-cruncher had proclaimed tens of thousands dead.

Within days, the Census Bureau notified Daponte that she was going to be fired, saying she had falsified data and skirted a peer review. Her report was rewritten to suggest fewer civilian deaths, although it eventually survived as one of the few expert casualty estimates.

Daponte challenged her dismissal and eventually refuted the charges. But she found herself without any assignments and forbidden to speak or write about Iraq.

"I had a job but no work," said Daponte, who later took a temporary leave and left the bureau in 1996.

Daponte's supervisor at the time did not return phone calls last week seeking comment.

Today, Daponte has no plans to work on Iraqi demographics again, but remains convinced she did the right thing.

"When I was told not to think or talk about Iraq, that was wrong," she said.

Besides: "Nobody has ever said the numbers were wrong."



To: jlallen who wrote (21866)3/16/2003 10:02:34 PM
From: PartyTime  Read Replies (2) | Respond to of 25898
 
>>>In all, 40,000 Iraqi soldiers were killed in the conflict, she concluded, putting total Iraqi losses from the war and its aftermath at 158,000, including 86,194 men, 39,612 women, and 32,195 children.<<<

businessweek.com

Iraq v. Iran estimates vary, but a round number of 600,000 Iranian and 400,000 Iraqi deaths has been cited; Saddam claims to have killed 180,000 Kurds, however the US Dept. of State estimates 30,000 to 60,000. The USDS also estimates 1,000 Kuwaitis were killed during that invasion.

usinfo.state.gov

And, no doubt, he's slaughtered thousands more of his political enemies, including his own son, Kamel.

Is Saddam a death merchent? You bet!

Much like the blame and liability will become assigned to applicable parties involved in the Rhode Island nightclub fire, were the Iran v. Iraq War to be concluded similarly, who knows what the US threshold for blame would the US share. But, at a minimum, some is a fair answer.

All things in balance, the US indeed had some role relative to the Iraq-Iranian War, given the US did everything possible to keep the United Nations from condeming its attack on Iran, the US government aided Saddam covertly, and US corporations, among others from other nations, aided him on the war supply trail. Remember, the US at that time had absolutely no love for Iran. Which made the Iran-Contra, the supplying of arms to Iran via Israel, while Iran was at war with Iraq, all the more fascinating. A simple conclusion would be the US wanted that war to go on and on and on.

So, it can be reasonably argued that America, because it helped prolong that war, picks up some of the tab of responsibility for those million deaths.

So add whatever number fairly derived from Iran vs. Iraq, add in the deaths from the last Gulf War and then add in the deaths that'll result from the next war, which could become very extensive should a Battle for Baghdad happen in conjunction with a Shock and Awe bombing campaign, and the overall number of Iraqi deaths resulting from American influence could become very substantial, possibly at or even near the number of Iraqi deaths caused by the dictator himself.

I submit there's no modern example of a city of 5.5 million population (possibly higher due to migrations from the northern and southern no-fly zones) being overrun militarily. The closest example is Stalingrad where two million died.

Other considerations:
smh.com.au
english.pravda.ru
gulfweb.org
voy.com