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Politics : Foreign Affairs Discussion Group -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?

To: Neocon who wrote (83487)	3/18/2003 5:23:54 PM
From: Neocon	Respond to of 281500

Sorry to post and run, but I need to get outta here<g>.....I will answer rejoinders tomorrow.........

To: Neocon who wrote (83487)	3/18/2003 6:27:18 PM
From: Jacob Snyder	Read Replies (2) \| Respond to of 281500

re: US track record on setting up liberal democracies: <Germany, Japan, and Italy> Yes, those are the exceptions to the general rule. <It is working in the Eastern bloc countries, for the most part, with our technical aid.> They freed themselves. Remember, you are trying to find examples of nations where the U.S. has set up liberal democracies, after conquering and occupying the country. That's what we are planning on doing in Iraq, and you claim we have a track record of doing this. Locals did their own Regime Change and Nation Building in E. Europe. I know, the NeoCons like to claim that it was Reagan who destroyed the Warsaw pact. Truth is, it was millions of people, using classic Gandhian methods, who did what the Cold Warriors couldn't do in 50 years of trying. American troops were invited in after the fact, after the revolutions, after the democrats had come to power through their own efforts. This is actually a counter-example for your thesis. <Many British possessions, once freed, succeeded in holding onto democracy> Many? List them. For every India, there are 10 Zimbabwes. For every Malaysia, there are 10 Burmas. <Pinochet gave up power in favor of a democracy> Another counter-example. The CIA put him in power, and kept him in power for a long bloody reign of terror in Chile. The Chilean people overthrew him, we had nothing to do with it, we didn't help them set up a liberal democracy in any way. They are a democracy today, in spite of everything we did to them. <as did Franco in Spain> Again, this was done entirely locally, without any help from the U.S., and certainly not with the help of the U.S. Army. After WWII, we legitimized Franco (who had been helped to power by soldiers sent by Hitler and Mussolini), by inviting him into NATO. He was our close ally, our good friend, for decades. Truth is, for every democracy the U.S. has set up, we've set up 20 tyrants. <subject peoples were better off in colonial regimes> Your mask is slipping, the NeoCon mask that covers the Imperialist. It's better PR, to at least pretend you believe that Asians and Muslims and Africans are capable of self-government. Thing is, even if you're right, the locals would prefer a local tyrant to a foreign one.