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Politics : Foreign Affairs Discussion Group -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?

To: Neocon who wrote (83728)	3/19/2003 2:36:35 PM
From: LindyBill	Respond to of 281500

The Eastern bloc countries had a hand in their own liberation, to be sure, but even they believe that we were primarily responsible for liberating them, which is why they are taking Bush's side in the present crisis. Maybe Vaclac Havel and Lech Walesa know something you don't. One thing that our left can never accept, and really, really, sticks in their craw, is that Eastern Europe not only credits America for their liberation, they specifically credit Reagan! Ooooooh, that hurts.

To: Neocon who wrote (83728)	3/19/2003 5:21:35 PM
From: Jacob Snyder	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 281500

re: US track record on setting up liberal democracies Thanks for your reply. Those are interesting sites, especially the "map of freedom" at the Freedom House site. I'm going to have to look at their methodology, to see exactly how they define "freedom", before I have an opinion. The opinion you (and Lindy) express, is one I've heard a lot, in the last few years: Reagan won the Cold War by demonizing the Communists ("evil empire"), and out-spending them on Star Wars, etc. This is going to be another endless argument between Hawks and Doves. Basically, I think Hawks are creating another National Myth, taking credit for something they had nothing to do with. What Reagan (and Thatcher, and Bush1) was doing, wasn't much different than what the U.S. had been doing since the late 1940s. Containment, Cold War with hot spots in inconsequential areas. It hadn't worked, for 50 years. What worked, to end Communism from E. Berlin to Moscow, was methods that were the exact opposite of Reagan/Thatcher/NeoCon methods. What NeoCons refuse to acknowledge, is that methods they are certain are Utopian, methods they ridicule as impractical in the RealWorld, they worked, and worked spectacularly well. I think this is an example of people being unable to see something, because they hold a worldview in which such things are impossible, so they simply refuse to see the evidence in front of their eyes. When you are 110% certain something can't happen, and then it does, you simply pretend it didn't. And then invent a history in which it never happened. If you look at the history of the end of Communism in E. Europe, the methods consistently used, were Gandhian non-violent resistance. The opposite of the methods that Cold Warriors used without success for 50 years. Tanks and warplanes and economic embargoes and "evil empire" speeches, these methods were tried for decades. <we were primarily responsible for liberating them> "We" cheered from the sidelines. "We" were not in the streets of Leipzig and Moscow and dozens of other cities behind the Iron Curtain in 1989-1991. "We" didn't face the tanks with empty hands. How could "we" have been responsible, when "we" weren't there, and "we" don't even understand or believe in the methods used, and "we" dismiss/ridicule Gandhi's ideology? What worked, was millions of oppressed unarmed people saying, "you can kill us, but we will no longer obey." That's what it takes, to create freedom. The NeoCon methods of spreading freedom, are the same methods used by Napolean. He, too, thought he was spreading freedom and prosperity throughout the world, as the Napoleonic Code was introduced wherever his armies conquered.