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Politics : Foreign Affairs Discussion Group -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?

To: FaultLine who wrote (84321)	3/20/2003 6:20:51 PM
From: Condor	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 281500

This situation can be repaired though and I hope our successes in Iraq will help convince many that we are still willing consider the interests of others in the long run. Hello fl, Winning (successes), by and in itself will not do that. I don't understand how you can make that statement with any conviction. I think your inner worst fears may result from the very scenario you describe and that is that successes will fortify the present displayed swagger in US Foreign policy. I think you know I have great respect for you and your opinion but in this instance I'm afraid wishful thinking overcame rationalization IMO. Perhaps I am wrong. Regards C

To: FaultLine who wrote (84321)	3/20/2003 6:24:09 PM
From: Sun Tzu	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 281500

Having read your post, I still don't understand why you support the invasion of Iraq. Is it because you think it is crucial to have control of the oil fields, or is it because you don't like Saddam and think him to be a dangerous man? Or is it both and that is all there is to it? Just trying to find out... ST

To: FaultLine who wrote (84321)	3/20/2003 10:08:06 PM
From: JohnM	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 281500

Very well put, Ken. Looks like you have spent as much good time thinking this all through as you have trying to keep Bill in line. :-) I, of course, don't see the present embodiment of Saddam as the same level of threat as he was in 91. But it's good to see the case made so clearly.

To: FaultLine who wrote (84321)	3/20/2003 10:29:44 PM
From: Maurice Winn	Read Replies (5) \| Respond to of 281500

Ken, thanks for the explanation. <I actually believe our society has invented a better way to live -- one in which anyone can join simply by embracing the principles. No heritage requirements are necessary. Call me naive, but there it is. > You might be surprised to know that many people around the world look on the American Way as a bit like door to door religious bible bashers proselytizing about their great way of life and beliefs. We have our own beliefs thanks very much. We think our way is better. Overall of course. There seem to be warts everywhere, but some warts are less ugly than others and the good aspects more attractive. For example, we have a low per capita income in NZ, but a low per capita homicide rate. We have a high per capita beachfront rate but a low per capita Tomahawk cruise missile rate. There is an infinite array of compromises. Good and bad in a shifting sands of happiness. We have friends in India who far prefer their way of life to the USA way of life. They have no aspiration to live in the USA. They gave up the international lifestyle to enjoy the soft pleasures of Kerala and Cochin. We have Peruvian [he] and American [she] friends who love living in Italy. They don't want to live in the USA. If you ask people around the world where they'd like to live, contrary to conventional wisdom, they wouldn't all move to the USA if given the chance. The main attraction of the USA to we aliens is economic. We suffer the drawbacks of the American Way to earn a crust. Or a trickle down. Or a crumb. Even many Americans have forsaken the American Way to see happiness in alien lands. Here's FredonEverything for example - you can read others of his rants at this link: fredoneverything.net Americans have escaped to many nooks and crannies in New Zealand, a rich American set this up as a hideout kauricliffs.com to Prague where Sier Geoff Goodfellow set up the Alcohol Bar alcoholbar.cz which he did from Globalstar short selling profits. There are hordes of other escapees. Americans tend to be bewildered as to why the greatest and best and most marvellous, free and fantastic country the planet has ever seen isn't totally admired and treated as haven of the gods to which all earthlings should bow and they damn well will or we'll nuke them! I think it's something to do with Goedel's self-reverential mathematic theorem [I don't think Goedel was American]. We see the right to bear arms converted to mayhem. Google easily found me a reference. holysmoke.org Guns might not kill people, but there are an awful lot of dead people from bullets. It's quite an astonishing murder rate. That sort of thing makes us nervous. We wouldn't necessarily like to adopt such a marvellous way of life. Even for a higher pay rate and the joys of the freeway, Taco Bell and 'freedom' to comply with Homeland Security requirements. True enough, the way of life is vastly better than the way of life of hordes of people. Nevertheless, I believe there are even better ways of running life than is achieved in the pinnacle of human civilization to now. We could start with a reconstituted United Nations, carve up of Iraq into self-administering linguist and religious chunks, supervised by the New World Order. We the Sheeple get nervous when we see elderly civil engineers turfed into a South African prison [which isn't a luxurious place to be] because some idiot of an FBI guy gets confused and couldn't give a stuff what happens to mere aliens. We suspect that not all Guantanamo inmates are Islamic Jihadists, especially since they are held incommunicado, with no habeas corpus, right to trial or any of that boring old human rights, human freedom stuff which doesn't need to apply to the subhuman aliens. We notice that human rights aren't top of mind in King George's litany these days. In the good old days, American Presidents would lecture [rightly] China and other countries about human rights. Now, there are third party interviews of suspected Al Qaeda supporters and even the American interviewers have had a couple of captives suffer death by blunt force injury if cyberspace is to be believed. Sure, the exigencies of war mean there are mistakes made. But rampant militarism also gives authoritarian thugs the circumstances in which they thrive. We, the Sheeple, worry about all this stuff. In the absence of a United Nations which makes sense [to me] I'm happy to support the USA as the nearest thing to a global civilizing influence [I pay vastly more tax in the USA than I do in NZ so I'm putting my money where my mouth is]. But I'm keeping a weather eye on the situation and would like to see some of my taxes spent on the sorting out of the UN. I can only vote my taxes with my feet, by selling my shares - Americans are the only ones who decide by actual voting how my taxes are spent. What about that no taxation without representation stuff? I thought that was an American Way idea. Wasn't the Declaration of Independence something to do with British imposts on American property? Mqurice