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Politics : Stop the War! -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?

To: ChrisJP who wrote (4294)	3/27/2003 11:55:11 PM
From: matthew (Hijacked)	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 21614

"You choose to ignore Saddam's 20 year record of horrifying treatment of his neighbors and his own people" 20 years you say. You seem to forget that just 13 years ago Saddam was on the US's most favorite dictators list. I assume it was just an oversight on your part. As far as Rwanda is concerned, if you cannot understand the point which was being made then I won't bother continuing this discussion.

To: ChrisJP who wrote (4294)	3/28/2003 4:58:57 AM
From: zonder	Respond to of 21614

What makes you think the USA is obligated to fix every problem going on in the world. Nobody said that. Just trying to show you that US only fixes problems where its major interests (ex: OIL) are involved, and hence the "poor people being massacred/invaded/raped/etc" has nothing to do with the decision mechanism.

To: ChrisJP who wrote (4294)	4/6/2003 11:43:20 PM
From: peter michaelson	Read Replies (2) \| Respond to of 21614

Hey Chris, I'm replying to you because I enjoy the objective reasonability you bring to the discussions on SI. The fact is -- Saddam invaded Kuwait -- the USA chased him out, we gave the Kuwaitis their country back, and the Kuwaitis are grateful. What I am wondering is... what is a Kuwaiti? What is an Iraqi? etc. What makes a nation? I know little about the history and ethnic makeup of the Middle East, but the subject of how, by whom, and when these 'nations' were formed is worthy of discussion. I have heard it said that for the most part the English had the most power after the Turks were driven out at the end of WWI. Not sure how far east and south the Turkish empire ran, but I know it lasted hundreds of years. Is there something that makes these 'natural nations', that is, not borders imposed on a map by outside powers? If they are manufactured nations, then the notion that Iraq invaded Kuwait becomes subjective. Looking at a map, Kuwait looks like a bit of an afterthought, a piece of Iraq territory removed. While Iraq has a teeny coastline, Kuwait has much where it looks like Iraq's could have been. If Kuwait doesn't have a different ethnic makeup, language, etc., then imagining myself an Iraqi looking at a map it's pretty easy to think Kuwait belongs to me, and was taken away by foreign powers. (i have no idea whether there is any evidence to support this, by the way) If the nations don't have solid standing, then as an Iraqi I would think it terribly unfair that Kuwait has so much more oil production per capita than Iraq. Why should those Kuwaiti princes etc. get so rich while all these Iraqi millions are not? I'm not saying they shouldn't - I'm asking why. If there is justification to this outlook, it takes away from this whole notion of Iraq being an aggressive country victimizing its neighbor and threatening the world. One could speculate that Kuwait would not be a nation at all were it not for outside powers with vested interests making it become and remain a nation. I believe the Arab outlook is that European/Christian powers have dominated their culture and their countries for nearly a century. Before that they were dominated by other outside powers. In many ways I can imagine Arabs seeing the overall Middle East conflicts as a struggle for independence. As plants reach for the sun, all peoples strive for independence from outside domination. I think it's useful too to keep in mind that the concept of 'nation' is only a concept. Not all areas of the world have adopted it into their subconscious as we of the Western world have done. Nations are not concrete as what we see on the globe - just take a look at an old globe. Anyway, some thoughts. How I wish I could have a discussion based on information and reason. Unfortunately, that has not been possible to date. Peter