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To: alan w who wrote (34755)	3/28/2003 3:20:09 PM
From: 2MAR$	Respond to of 39621

Paul plainly teaches that carnal Israel is NOT Israel. Maybe you should write a hymn , and call it "That 'ol Israel State of Mind " ... One of the problems with trying to assign the term "Holy" to one geographical place verse another , is it tends to muddy up the waters considerably . That ground is holy where you are standing rigt now in the "Temple" of your own body & psyche . This is such ignorant , primitive stuff that it is a wonder this fellow Elect cannot keep from stumbling all over himself moment by moment . Grasping at verses from a scripture that has been mis-interpreted by priests since they dreamed it up...and he like they would have no importance or relevance unless they could make the fairytale stick. All the while damning others , in the name of Holy Scripture ot course . Very shallow and irrelevant game that ..as irrelevant as their personal insecurities and limited intellects. Solon does a fairly quick job of addressing it here : <<And some ground is Holy, and some is not. Why does God want the seed of Abraham (whether He intended Isaac or Ismael) to revere certain ground as Holy? Is the rest of the ground not God's? Are the rest of the people not God's? Is there no other Holy place in all the vast universe? Apparently, not! :-) It is of course just coincidence that the human race having sprung out of geographical dissimilarities and expressing different racial and tribal characteristics, and self interests, should have Gods who expressly favour their tribal group--rather they be a huge united tribal coalition or a little group of Chickasaws.>> Message 18766134 The biggest error of the Jews and Christians alike is the entire concept of the "Elect" . This is what Jesus tried to do away with his entire ministry up to and including his death , and here you find this over-zealous imbecile who likes the attention , trying to convince you otherwise , thru "scripture" of course. This literal interpretation is what one would expect to come out of the mouths of chimpanzees if they could talk, or were given tomorrow the skill of writing.<G> There is not much love of christ shining thru here , just petty tribalism from out of an original superstition based on self-aggrandizement , blood sacrifice , and mass self deception as scriptures & prophecies were written & doctored to support the tribal line of belief , to sway some imaginary God of wrath's favors. To believe otherwise meant banishment , stoning to death . Moses had how many of his own people put to death ? regards M

To: alan w who wrote (34755)	3/28/2003 3:32:09 PM
From: Berry Picker	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 39621

RE>>How do you keep up with all the scriptural gymnastics?<< Paul spent time teaching what I have just tried to teach you. I know, Alan - that you likely think you know it all but... Jesus addressed the attitude that "If Jew - then saved" when He said this: Matthew 3:9 And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham. Being a SON of Abraham and a part of the Elect Nation Earthly does not equal Being a Son of God and a part of the Elect Nation Heavenly. This is not "gymnastics" on my part - it is important. If it was not important that Paul would not have taken so much time to explain and PROVE AT LENGTH this reality. Now maybe none of that fits you Universalism but too bad. Look: 3 For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh: Kinsmen according to the flesh meant "sons of Abraham" carnal. 6 ¶ Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: They are not all Israel ( spiritual and sons of the promise) which are of Israel ( Israel carnal - the whole elect nation) 7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. Alan - if they are the seed of Abraham then they are most certainly "children" Abraham's children ( carnal ) but Paul say's they are not all children - He means they are not all children of the promise - children of faith. What do you think Paul is teaching in these verse if not what I am saying? Paul is making a clear distinction between the "carnal pattern" and the "spiritual reality" 8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed. Paul teaches that you can be a "Son of Abraham" and a part of the Holy Nation (earthly) without being a "Son of God" and a part of that "Holy Priesthood and Nation" 1 Peter 2:9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light: This nation was the heavenly Israel! 2 Corinthians 5:1 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. Gymnastics? I think not.