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Pastimes : Ask God -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?

To: alan w who wrote (34840)	3/28/2003 8:49:13 PM
From: 2MAR$	Respond to of 39621

Buddha: Hatred do not ever cease in this world by hating, but by love; this is an eternal truth... Overcome anger by love, Overcome evil by good. overcome the miser by giving, overcome the liar by truth. Jesus: Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, bless those who curse you, pray for those who abuse you. From anyone who takes away your coat do not withhold even your shirt. Give to everyone who begs from you; and if anyone takes away your goods, do not ask for them again.

To: alan w who wrote (34840)	3/31/2003 11:13:08 PM
From: Berry Picker	Respond to of 39621

RE>>"Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do".<< Alan - if there is one thing I can definitely give you credit for - it is looking into the harder points. The question concerning that statement is - as with all statements... what did Christ mean? Did Christ mean: 1. Forgive all of mankind throughout all the "ages" for all of their sins including this one because after visiting here it is obvious they really have not a clue what they are doing :-) (I know I got carried away) 2. Forgive the current generation for the specific sin of crucifying me. 3. Forgive some of these Roman guards who are involved and really have no idea what has gone on here. And any other number of concepts... Here is my problem Alan. Jesus is the Son of God but also God Himself. It makes no sense to me that Jesus could pray anything and not get "YES" for an answer. The only prayer people can point to and say that Christ got a "no" for an answer is when He prayed that the 'cup pass from Him IF possible' I do not think that prayer was 'normal' and in fact Christ said over and over "nevertheless not my will" Christ said this concerning His arrest: Matthew 26:53 Thinkest thou that I cannot now pray to my Father, and he shall presently give me more than twelve legions of angels? This He said when the apostle attempted to defend Him with the sword and cut off the ear of one of the arresting officers. Christ then healed the ear and submitted not only to the arrest but eventually the cross. SO WE KNOW - that when Christ prayed that prayer he was anguishing in spirit but had no intent of asking in earnest to avoid the cross. So - Alan - I believe (and you may 'think' this wins me over) that if in fact Christ asked the Father to forgive all of mankind and save every soul ever created that it would be done. I believe the sacrifice is big enough I do not believe the will of man is an obstacle in salvation as do the arminians. I believe if God wanted to save everyone then everyone would be saved. I do NOT however - believe that you can make the bible teach that - ever. Jesus could not be praying for all men - throughout all ages - regarding all sins. That is the assertion of the Universalist. The bible can not contradict itself Nor does God "change" His mind Jesus was not "suddenly" overtaken with compassion that He lacked a day earlier: John 17:9 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine. Jesus Prays for the SHEEP - not the GOATS!!! The text specifically says that Jesus "PRAYED NOT" for "ALL" of mankind. End of story... You can decide what you like about what "Father forgive THEM means but it cannot mean "THE WORLD" because Jesus states without question to any reasonable mind that He prayed only for those whom "the father had given Him" John 17:6 ¶ I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: ( elect - BV ) thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word. John 17:14 I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. The world hates them and me. John 15:19 If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you. Christ did not pray for those who hate me. Unless they hate me for something I did wrong :-) They are the damned. God will punish the wicked Sorry - but that is how it is.

To: alan w who wrote (34840)	4/9/2003 12:17:11 AM
From: Berry Picker	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 39621

Dear Alan... I "promised" to write to you concerning 1 John 2:2 and other verses that you - at this point - believe teach that Christ died for all men without specifications of any kind. 1John2: 2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world. While there are a variety of understandings concerning this verse there are 4 main groups into which interpretations fall. 1. Generic or Universal 2. Geographical 3. Eschatological 4. Ethnological I believe your understanding falls under Generic and so I will start with explaining what you likely already believe. 1. Generic or Universal a. The extent of the propitiation in 1 John 2:2 The "Generic" or "Universal" view insists that Christ appeased God the Father's Wrath and secured as a possibility the salvation of all of mankind without exception. At this point this group then divides once again into two groups. One a "Calvinist" (election and predestination) group whereupon the actual propitiation become real upon God granting the elect only the 'gift of faith' and the "Arminian" (free will) who believe that the propitiation becomes real upon that act of the will of those who 'accept' Christ as savior. An "Extreme or Absolute Universalistic" view is that the propitiation will be applied to all men without exception regardless of election by God or response by men ( all sin paid for therefore absolutely all are saved) b. Understanding of the term “our sins” Most understand “OUR” to refer to either the ‘elect’ ( Calvinism) or those who ‘accept’ Christ and believe (Arminian) while Extreme Universalists understand it to apply to all men. c. Extent of propitiation in other verses ignored Usually these deny the limited extent described in Romans 2:29 3:1 3:9 3:22 meaning both Jew and Gentile ‘believers’ only see Heb 2:17 brethren = the people - not - All people. Also within 1John 4:6 4:8 –10 specifically refers to “US” as those who believe and are of God and Love. These verses are ignored by Universalists. These verses definately limit the atonement to believers only or the truly born-again elect only in regard to having the spirit and being saved. d. Meaning of sins of the whole world Universalists believe that this applies to unbelievers throughout all of history. e. Extent or meaning of “world” Universalists assume this to refer to EVERYBODY, both elect and non-elect in an eternal salvation context. 2. Geographical a. The extent of the propitiation in 1 John 2:2 The geographic application takes the extent to refer to the elect only but to extend not only to Israel and Asia but also to the whole world in a geographical sense. b. Understanding of the term “our sins” These would say that the term “our sins” is referring to the elect who reside in Asia at the time that John wrote this epistle. c. Extent of propitiation in other verses acknowledged They acknowledge that it applies to elect only in other verses as well. d. Meaning of sins of the whole world Whole world would refer to all the elect throughout the “kosmos” meaning the earth regardless of physical or geological location. Not restricted to Israel of Asia only. e. Extent or meaning of “world” “world” is restricted to God’s Elect only and never refers to those who are non-elect unbelievers in regard to salvation. 3. Eschatological a. The extent of the propitiation in 1 John 2:2 Again (as in the geological school) it appeases God’s wrath toward the elect only and to them only secures salvation. b. Understanding of the term “our sins” The present living elect who were alive when John wrote this epistle. c. Extent of propitiation in other verses acknowledged Restricted to true believers i.e. God’s elect only. d. Meaning of sins of the whole world Future believers who would exist in the world beyond that present and passing age. Emphasis of this view is on ages and time. That even future generation were justified though not yet born. e. Extent or meaning of “world” Again – never refers to those who are not born-again or elected unto salvation 4. Ethnological This is the view I believe suits scripture and other areas that speak in the same manner such as Romans 3-4 but I also favor a cross between this view and the escatological view. That it extended not only to Jews then living but Gentiles and all men who would be saved throughout all ages. a. The extent of the propitiation in 1 John 2:2 Christ appeased God’s wrath and secured salvation of the elect only – both Jews and Gentiles. (no references to ages or time) b. Understanding of the term “our sins” Jewish believers to whom John was writing who resided in Asia minor. c. Extent of propitiation in other verses acknowledged Still only referring to God’s elect – whether Jew or Gentile. d. Meaning of sins of the whole world Gentile believers – especially those outside Asia Minor John 11: 51 And this spake he not of himself: but being high priest that year, he prophesied that Jesus should die for that nation; 52 And not for that nation only, but that also he should gather together in one the children of God that were scattered abroad. e. Extent or meaning of “world” Ultimately restricted again to God’s Elect, stressing however Gentile believers John 3:16 Acts 11:11-15 Of these 4 views Alan I think the worst is the Generic or Universal view. I think the Ethnological view to suit not only this passage but many that speak to the same subject. The Hews could hardly believe Gentile could be saved! It is obvious to me that the Universalistic understanding looks at this passage with blinders to the rest of scripture and with a clear and stubborn disposition to make this passage refer to all men in regard to salvation - which it does not. I think I will end with a couple of verses that plainly show that Christ did not intend for all men to be saved. John 17:9 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine. John 10:16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd. Matthew 13: 10 And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables? 11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given. John 10:26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you. Matthew 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. Matthew 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: Alan can you not see the striking similarity between what John wrote in John 11:51-52 and 1John 2:2 ? Good night for now Alan – tired of typing.