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To: Sawdusty who wrote (17843)	4/5/2003 12:58:15 AM
From: d:oug	Respond to of 81266

"I am humbled by my incomprehension." Sarge, since my posts receive near zero responce time except for those of the E.Chatters of which only seek to present themselves as "information," i'll make this post quite short and not really address your post that contains a thousand thousand thoughts with a zillion zillion questions. . - a short true story - . Earth: Vietnam year: 1968 location: on top of small rocky hill who: US Marines with a reckless rifle situation: base of the hill, a few VC with sniper rifle action: Marines close by were pinned down by sniper ok, It was getting dark and night time vision goggles were rare at that place in history for US soilders, so knowing that the VC located below the 106 Marines at hill's top would slip away under cover of darkness, it was decided to call in one of those heros of everyone, the fighter pilots in their awesome jets with the ability to drop bombs on enemy locations. . But these VC had a natural bomb proof location, that being inside this hill of rocks (near The Rock Pile i remember it was called) in this part of northern Vietnam that had breath taken beauty of a rolling green/brown landscape with these mountains of solid rocks shotting up from the land like giant mushrooms. ok, But dropping hand grenades down the hill onto the VC was useless, and bombs dropped from jet did little except to create dust. . So a jet dropped that to me weapon not of mass destruction, but to me as bad, a weapon of horrible hurt.. napalm. . Yes, it flowed into the bomb proof cave of rock and burnt the VC. . I told this story years later to folks of young age, over 25, and they all felt the fighter jet hero'ism like that movie and news reels that show these attack air crafts taking off war ships etc. . But then i asked them why the fighter pilot was a great hero that seems to be a person doing the correct thing. . They looked at me as if i was un-paint-tree-out-of-it. . Well, i told them that i changed the true story, but just how the ending came to the same end result. Rather than a hero type fighter pilot dropping napalm from above i told them that the crew on that 106 rifle mounted on a small 4 wheel cart powered by a gasoline engine took a 5 gallon can of gasoline and poured it down the hill so that the gasoline fell into the protected pocket of rocks and cave the VC were in, and then lit a match and the flame went down until it hit the puddle of gasoline that the VC were standing in, and they were burnt the same way as if the fighter pilot did it. . horror of horror soaking the enemy with the contents of a can of gasoline and lighting a match to set them aflame (or) let the hero fighter pilot do it, and its ok "to accept"

To: Sawdusty who wrote (17843)	4/5/2003 8:32:31 AM
From: sea_urchin	Read Replies (3) \| Respond to of 81266

Sarge, thank you for considering that I'm a wise person but, unfortunately, I'm not the one who can properly answer your very deep and personal questions. As you know I'm neither American nor in favor of this war. Nevertheless, I will attempt to give you some insights to the reasons for the war. These insights come from sources no less than those actually responsible for the war --- its very architects. After all, when confronted by acts of outstanding bravery or sheer horror one would expect to find important reasons for the situation which led up to them. Regrettably, I can find no such reasons. In fact, what I do find is fantasy, arrogance and fascination with ones own ideas and self-importance. In fact, delusions of grandeur. People who are drunk on their own power. >My problem is justifying the logic of sending an overwhelming force, the most formidable the world that has ever seen....... dropping smart bombs, cluster bombs, any freaking kind of bomb that you can imagine, some that you cannot, all from 40,000 feet, while having the pilots exclaim "wow, what a light show", "what a rush", while we sit glued to the TV witnessing the devastating destruction of innocent non combatants. news.independent.co.uk >>>Geoff Hoon, the [UK] Defence Secretary, suggested yesterday that mothers of Iraqi children killed by cluster bombs would "one day" thank Britain for their use. Mr Hoon's claim came as the Ministry of Defence confirmed for the first time that it had dropped 50 airborne cluster munitions in the south of Iraq, leaving behind up to 800 unexploded bomblets.<<< > What's wrong with my thinking? This is more honorable? This is how it should be? This is righteous? This is what we have come to expect from the land of the brave? haaretz.com From William Kristol: >>>....the truth is that it's an American war. The neoconservatives succeeded because they touched the bedrock of America. The thing is that America has a profound sense of mission. America has a need to offer something that transcends a life of comfort, that goes beyond material success. Therefore, because of their ideals, the Americans accepted what the neoconservatives proposed. They didn't want to fight a war over interests, but over values. They wanted a war driven by a moral vision. It's based on the new American understanding that if the United States does not shape the world in its image, the world will shape the United States in its own image.<<< From Charles Krauthammer: >>>America thus reached the conclusion that it has no choice: it has to take on itself the project of rebuilding the Arab world. Therefore, the Iraq war is really the beginning of a gigantic historical experiment whose purpose is to do in the Arab world what was done in Germany and Japan after World War II. <<< From Thomas Friedman: >>>This is not an illegitimate war. But it is a very presumptuous war. You need a great deal of presumption to believe that you can rebuild a country half a world from home. But if such a presumptuous war is to have a chance, it needs international support. That international legitimacy is essential so you will have enough time and space to execute your presumptuous project. But George Bush didn't have the patience to glean international support. He gambled that the war would justify itself, that we would go in fast and conquer fast and that the Iraqis would greet us with rice and the war would thus be self-justifying. That did not happen. Maybe it will happen next week, but in the meantime it did not happen. What George Bush did, Friedman says, is to show us a splendid mahogany table: the new democratic Iraq. But when you turn the table over, you see that it has only one leg. This war is resting on one leg. But on the other hand, anyone who thinks he can defeat George Bush had better think again. Bush will never give in. That's not what he's made of. Believe me, you don't want to be next to this guy when he thinks he's being backed into a corner. I don't suggest that anyone who holds his life dear mess with Dick Cheney, Donald Rumsfeld and President Bush.<<< Now you know --- no-one messes with Dick Cheney, Donald Rumsfeld or President Bush. What they want, they get. So, if you are a sensitive American who does not like what he sees I imagine there are now only two choices --- either support your power-crazed president and his henchmen --- or get out. If I appear insensitive, I apologise, because I am not.