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Politics : Foreign Affairs Discussion Group -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?

To: bela_ghoulashi who wrote (90776)	4/6/2003 11:56:55 PM
From: LindyBill	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 281500

The Brits took damn all time about it. I was beginning to think it was a replay of "Market Garden." Here is Safire's version of the Ireland conference. >>>>> Blair: Memorable locution. Now the first thing we want to do after the war ?? Bush: Hold on. When you came to Camp David a couple of weeks ago, your polls were in the tank. So I went along with that "road map" to lean on Sharon in Israel. Blair: Evenhandedness will redound to America's benefit in world opinion as well. Now about postwar Iraq ?? Bush: You really think we ought to turn it over to Chirac, Schröder and Putin? Blair: You know I don't, George. But I will tell you I'm firmly of the belief that the United Nations must have a pre-eminent role in post-Saddam Iraq. Bush: What do you mean, "pre-eminent"? Blair: Foremost, central, predominant ?? Bush: Not on my watch. You and Colin dragged me to the Security Council and six months of getting jerked around. Now, with all the British and American lives lost and treasure spent, you want those foot-dragging bureaucrats to come in and run things? Blair: I am the bridge between you and the three nations that presume to speak for all of Europe. If I can get you to turn peacekeeping in Iraq over to the U.N., I'll be able to mediate between the U.S. and Europe for the rest of both of our days in office. You need it. Bush: What I need is to knock down the notion that America is against the Arabs or Islam. My mission is to show that our war of liberation not only makes the world more secure, but also results in a better life for the Iraqi people. That's a responsibility that you and I assumed when the U.N. wouldn't. Blair: But the U.N. confers legitimacy ?? Bush: The U.N. does projects. Distributing food, health programs, coordinating charitable contributions from a lot of nations, all that. And if you want to be the bridge to making that happen, I'm all for you getting full credit with Vladimir and all of 'em. Start laying those pontoons. Blair: But the reconstruction of a nation is a huge task, even for a superpower. To police the despicable detritus of Saddam's regime, to build a platform for a parliamentary system ?? Bush: That's the job for a coalition of the liberators who know how democracy and free enterprise work. And we won't be alone. Japan is ready to help. South Korea, now that Rummy threatened to pull out our troops, is suddenly eager to pitch in. And India, biggest democracy of all, with all those Muslims ?? Blair: Hindus, mainly. Bush: But with a billion people, plenty of Muslims, good constabulary, educated, smart at business ? hell, half of America's financial backrooms are run out of India. We'll put together a coalition that will turn Iraq around while you and I are still in office. Blair: You're an incurable optimist, George. I fear we'll be seen and hated as occupiers unless we put a government of Iraqis in place quickly. Bush: We're not in the anointing business. That's why I said no to a provisional government. We'll start with Iraqi advisers, let the factions work out their leaders, make sure no dictator grabs power, help set up a justice system. And we'll show them how to get much more oil out of the ground and make sure royalties go into transparent government accounts. No skimming. Then we're out of there. Blair: Churchill did say "In war, resolution. . . . In victory, magnanimity. . . ." Bush: And "In peace, good will." (At Blair's aghast expression) Condi briefed me on that one<<<<<<< nytimes.com

To: bela_ghoulashi who wrote (90776)	4/6/2003 11:58:25 PM
From: KonKilo	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 281500

"They were welcoming us openly for the first time. Giving us the universal sign of approval - the thumbs up. What Does a "Thumbs Up" Mean in Iraq? By Brendan I. Koerner Posted Friday, March 28, 2003, at 12:51 PM PT slate.msn.com Iraqis are giving passing Americans the "thumbs up" sign, which the troops interpret as a symbol of support. But many veteran travelers insist that the gesture is a crass Middle Eastern insult. How should coalition forces take those skyward thumbs? Depends on how media savvy those Iraqi bystanders may be. It's true that "thumbs up" traditionally translates as the foulest of Iraqi insults—the most straightforward interpretation is "Up yours, pal!" The sign has a similarly pejorative meaning in parts of West Africa, Russia, Australia, Iran, Greece, and Sardinia, according to Roger E. Axtell's book Gestures: The Do's and Taboos of Body Language Around the World. So, it's possible that the ostensibly cheering Iraqis are, in fact, silently voicing their displeasure. But it's also possible that they understand the Western meaning of upturned thumbs, an explanation that the Army's Defense Language Institute subscribes to. According to a recent DLI manual on international gestures, after the first Gulf War "Middle Easterners of the Arabian Peninsula adopted this hand movement, along with the OK sign, as a symbol of cooperation toward freedom." Iraqi civilians may have noted this shifting meaning, perhaps via TV reports. How the thumbs up became an upbeat gesture in the first place is something of a mystery. Legend has it that the signal dates back to Roman gladiatorial contests. A beaten combatant could supposedly be saved from a death blow if the emperor gave the thumbs up; a thumbs down was tantamount to an execution order. Though a favorite of Hollywood "swords and sandals" epics, this explanation has been completely debunked in recent years. In 1997, University of Kansas classics professor Anthony Philip Corbeill concluded that the thumbs up actually meant "Kill him," basing his assertion on a study of hundreds of ancient artworks. Instead, he wrote, a closed fist with a wraparound thumb was the indication for a gladiator's life to be spared. No one's quite sure about where the positive American connotation comes from, though a good guess ascribes it to an English symbol of agreement. Desmond Morris' Gestures: Their Origins and Distribution traces the practice back to a medieval custom used to seal business transactions. The two involved parties would lick their thumbs, hold them erect, then smush them together. Over time, the mere sight of an upraised thumb came to symbolize harmony and kind feelings. The gesture's popularization in America is generally attributed to the practices of World War II pilots, who used the thumbs up to communicate with ground crews prior to take-off. American GIs are reputed to have picked up on the thumb and spread it throughout Europe as they marched toward Berlin.