To: Jorj X Mckie who wrote (12388 ) 4/14/2003 9:25:16 AM From: zonder Respond to of 21614 It was really my way of saying that just because you want something, doesn't mean you are going to get it the minute you ask for it. It may help to remember that we are talking about proof to support serious allegations, rather than chocolate cake :-) Universal norm in western societies is that the accuser provides the proof if he wishes to be taken seriously, let alone supported in his aggressive acts on the basis of his accusations. Proof is demanded and has to be provided right away, unlike chocolate cake..."Innocent until proven guilty" that isn't true in every country. As a matter of fact, I am almost certain that it isn't true in Iraq, so we didn't really violate any values there. It is quite the accepted norm in all western cultures, however, which were the parties that demanded the proof in the first place. So, yes, values were violated and precedents set. Not in Iraq, but in the western international arena - no more need for conclusive proof, just attack and invade other sovereign countries on the basis of some imagined future threat, and it's OK as long as you are the strongest. "Might makes right", in other words. The U.S. will have to provide evidence of WMDs if its credibility is to be maintained in the world community I agree with you. And I am pretty sure that they will be found eventually, although not that sure that they will have existed before the US invasion. As far as proof, there was some pretty good evidence given by Colin Powell, but that seems have been insufficient for many. I watched Powell's speech before the UN Security Council. It held the likes of a conversation recorded in Arabic (no identities) which might as well have been spoken into microphones in the Pentagon, aerial views of a truck which we are asked to believe holds WMDs, a place believed to be a terrorist camp that is in the north of the country where Saddam holds no authority, etc. It is unreasonable to expect the U.S. to use conventional methods to fight an unconventional attack. What would be the unconventional methods that the US would use? Invading any country that they suspect might one day be a threat hardly appears to be an effective method to fight terrorists, imho.I'm not convinced that we are getting the cooperation anyway There was a lot of cooperation from (traditional) allies after 9/11. That changed over the past year. I believe that is because of the bullying they have seen since then, and the complete disregard for their concerns that the US administration showed. And I am not convinced that the U.S. should beg countries join the war on terrorism. Assuring their cooperation by addressing their concerns rather than bullying is not exactly "begging", imho.