OT, OT, Kodiak
Well I'm seeing a side of you that you normally hide a little better. Your "gotcha" point was that the following quote revealed that I was "completely, absolutely, without-a-doubt wrong about just about everything." According to you my views put me in a class with "Nancy Pelosi, Tom Daschle, David Bonior, Janeanne Garofalo, Alec Baldwin, Sean Penn, Jane Fonda, etc." I guess that's your current "them" list. Let's take a look at the quote you so gleefully maligned:
"As for the hitting of the statue of Saddam with their shoes, that does have meaning. Its meaning at this point tells us only that two hundred or so people out of a huge city came out and demonstrated their revulsion toward Hussein. They may be representative of the majority, or even a huge majority, of the people of Baghdad, or they may not."
Now what was it about that quote that's "completely, absolutely, without-a-doubt wrong about just about everything." Was it the statement that the crowd of 200 might or might not represent a majority, "or even a huge majority" of the people of Baghdad? The FACTS are that no one yet knows how our actions in Iraq will play out among the various sects and segments of Iraqi society. Take a look at other similar statements I've made regarding this issue in my recent postings here:
Message 18818734
Sure, there are sects who will welcome us and sections where we will undoubtedly be welcomed with the dancing and flowers we were told awaited us. The Kurds are ecstatic, The Shiites are leaning our way. I don't know about the Sunni and the Baeth are definitely not our friends. Time will tell and a few images on the screen will not. I expect that when this is done we will see substantial celebrations but we should be aware of those that do not share in the rejoicing. Even among those that rejoice, the mood can change quickly if we don't handle things properly.
Message 18817878
"Kodiak, in a city of 5+ million people, how many do you see in the "big crowd?" Hopefully this is the beginning of something momentous but it may be a little early to start getting giddy and chanting USA USA. I'm sure that some Iraqis, hopefully the majority, see this as a good thing. Hopefully their adverse feelings for Saddam will transfer into good feelings for America for ridding their country of his ugly rule. The problem is that there are undoubtedly some Iraqis who are on the fence and some who are fiercely anti-American. We know that's true because some are still voting against us-with their lives. What all this means won't be known for months, or years, and will depend in large part on whether the Bush administration has a workable plan for the post war period that is fair and perceived as just by the Iraqis, the Arab nations and the world."
I stand by all those statements and if you wanted to discuss the issues raised in those statements, I'd welcome the discussion. You have an able mind but, to be honest, you've always tended to throw a fit when anyone had a different take on your conservative and sometimes childishly petty points of view. That's why you were so ready to ban those who passionately expressed liberal views opposed to the conservative views you felt so comfortable expressing passionately or seeing expressed on your home-held thread. As you'll recall, that's why I left your thread and that's why it's so rare that you hear any views there other than like-thinking views.
If you want to label and name call anyone who has a view you consider "WRONG," at least be enough of a thinker to find a better statement to attack. You can say all you want about how a few pictures from a few journalists "prove" something but the facts are that even after the fall of the regime in Baghdad, even after the dismantling of the Republican Guard, even after the welcome that we've seen from the Kurds and the Shiites, our soldiers are being attacked and killed by Iraqi PEOPLE that are dying in the process. Our soldiers are unable to safely move in Sunni populated areas and the country is still a simmering cauldron of hates, fears and violence. You can say that's wrong all you want but in my view that only makes you appear to be a "true believer" in whatever it is that your hates, loves and fears drive you to want so desperately. In so doing I would not say that makes you wrong about just about everything, I wouldn't say it makes you right either. As I've repeatedly said, time will tell and it won't be hours and days, it will be weeks, months and years. Maybe it will be decades.
Grow up. Maybe in your rush to be such a "support our administration, shout down the opposition and support our troops" American you should take heed of the words spoken by Herman Goering at the Nuremberg trials:
"Of course the people don't want war. But after all, it's the leaders of the country who determine the policy, and it's always a simple matter to drag the people along whether it's a democracy, a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism, and exposing the country to greater danger."
NO ONE that I heard speak in this country had any serious doubts that we'd overcome the conventional forces of the Iraqis with a modest effort. We met and exceeded those expectations. The war that we should fear in the next decade is not the war that's imposed on us by nations. Most nations of the world are not YET prepared to counter or suffer the utter devastation that our weapons of mass destruction could wreak on them in a matter of minutes or hours. As the Iraqis who had the will and the means to fight us have learned, however, the way to fight a high tech, powerful army is to eat it's young when the bear is out of the den.
Low tech guerrilla attacks from an enemy that hides among a civilian population can be deadly and can disrupt a stronger foe forever. It's that kind of war that we should fear. It's that kind of enemy that we may face in future months and years in Iraq and here at home when they can reach us here. It's that kind of enemy that we may be creating in greater numbers with our current policies and actions and it's that kind of enemy that you seem unwilling to recognize. You can call them "thugs" if you like, but any time men and women are willing to die for the chance to kill us, we should recognize the power of their beliefs.
Now tell me how objective you are and how I've "just seen the greatest military victory in a century" and how most of the Iraqis all see this as the best thing since Mohammed. If that belief and the negative labeling of those that disagree with you allows you to sleep better at night and feel bright and powerful, that's up to you but don't expect to post such views without dissent. As for me, I'll continue to think critically and I won't let my hopes blind me to the views of the other side. I won't get caught up in a wave of patriotism or nationalism or pride of conquest and I won't forget and stop struggling to retain what made this country a great nation and a great civilization admired by almost every man and woman in the world. |
