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Politics : Stop the War! -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?


To: zonder who wrote (13311)4/14/2003 5:13:28 PM
From: Hawkmoon  Read Replies (1) | Respond to of 21614
 
Good. Took you three posts, but better late than never :-)

Which seems to be a better record than you have shown.. <sigh> I don't believe you've ever admitted to being wrong about anything (but you're about to get 11 more reasons to do so when the evidence if fully displayed in Karbala).

After all, you claimed the Padishah took Turkey into war, while utterly ommitting the fact that the Hamidian despotism was overthrown by the young turks in 1908, rendering the padishah a mere figure head in the government.

The young turks identified with the west, and in particular Imperial Germany and Austro-Hungary. They were anti-islamic secularists who saw such an alliance as further subverting any remaining power of the padishah.

So where's YOUR "mea culpa"?? (and don't think I'm going to be surprised when you fail to offer one).

The Hamidian despotism was ended by the Young Turk Revolution(1908-09) and replaced by constitutional, parliamentary government under the Young Turk Committee of Union and Progress. Their policies reflected a growing sense of Turkish nationalism. But in the five years preceding World War I, two Balkan wars and a war with Italy, which had invaded Libya, brought the military element of the Young Turk movement to the fore and resulted in the domination of the Istanbul political scene by the Young Turk Triumverate ( Enver, Talat, and Jemal Pashas) . Under their leadership, the Ottomans entered World War I on the side of Germany. The victors dictated the peace to end all peace at Paris in 1919. With even the heartlands of the Empire partitioned and Istanbul occupied by the victorious allies, the Turks of Anatolia under the leadership of Mustafa Kemal (Ataturk) rejected the terms of the dictated Treaty of Sevres. Again they took up arms, fought successfully for their independence, and --- bringing to an end the 600 + year-old Ottoman Empire –- negotiated the Treaty of Lausanne in 1923 which granted international recognition to the boundaries of the new Republic of Turkey

turizm.net



To: zonder who wrote (13311)4/14/2003 5:51:47 PM
From: Hawkmoon  Read Replies (1) | Respond to of 21614
 
Maybe you should define what a "cult of personality" is so I may comment on whether or not that applies to Ataturk's situation.

Logic should be dictating to you that you've answered your own question. Anybody who perceives they need to incorporate the name of a particular individual into the constitution of their government, let alone do it by his title as "father of the turks", and not by his real name, is creating a cult of personality.

If there is a law in Turkey against profaning Mustafa's name (or title) in public, that would only provide EVEN MORE evidence that a cult of personality continues to exist surrounding him. (edit: There is.. a 1951 law protecting Ataturk's legacy. The following author violated it and received 15 months in a hospitable Turkish prison for merely translating a biography critical of Ataturk in 1997. Must be because it became a BEST-SELLER after she translated it):

diaspora-net.org

But here's a more appropriate definition of COP for you:

wikipedia.org

And how about having having an entire ideology named after him (like Maoism and Marxism).. The Turks have Kemalism:

clubs.psu.edu

I mean, COME ON!!! I'm not saying that Mustafa was like Saddam Hussein, having his picture all around the cities and highways..

(oops.. spoke to soon.. mea culpa.. It seems they do post his face around the country, or at least did recently to hype of political fervor).

news.bbc.co.uk

And this person claims that Ataturk's personage hangs around every other block of most Turkish cities (kind of like a brand name):

graphicsiq.com

So hey.. whenever I have the chance to take a trip to Turkey (which I would like to do), I'll know what kind of public artwork to look out for, and exactly what not to say or do with regard to disparaging (or even de-mystifying) Ataturk. I might even "get lucky" if some petite, but buxom, Turkish gal eyes me bowing down in front of one of his posters paying "homage" to his greatness.

Hawk