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To: The Duke of URL© who wrote (174230)	4/25/2003 12:30:59 PM
From: hueyone	Read Replies (2) \| Respond to of 186894

What makes you think I don't understand the tax impact from exercise of stock options, or more importantly, that the institutions and figures I mentioned do not understand the tax implications? ou are really doing a great job of displaying your true colors now Duke. I think I will take a pass on going back and reading your old posts. You sound rather desperate---not to mention incredibly pompous and arrogant. Regards, Huey

To: The Duke of URL© who wrote (174230)	4/25/2003 1:15:52 PM
From: Amy J	Read Replies (2) \| Respond to of 186894

Hi Duke and Thread, great post: You said to Carl, "DO NOT CONFUSE DISCLOSURE AND CONTROL OF COMPENSATION AGREEMENTS WITH their financial and tax effect." I think that's exactly the issue. I agree with you totally. But how can the information be better disclosed and how can compensation be better controlled - it does tend to creep up and up. I think it's because of the "survey method." On a completely different note, my Dad spoke with me last night and is he doing really good. He's able to talk now. (He was speaking words here and there, even a sentence, but he now can do several paragraphs pretty well.) The only (visible) impact is he cannot walk at the moment but that's temporary I believe (it's due to inefficient oxygen to the legs I was told while on a ventilator for several months, apparently common, I read it happened to some Sars patients too that were on ventilators). He had around a 10% to 15% chance to live, and he fought very hard, and made it. It's so great to be able to talk to him again. His next "project" (my Dad always has a zillion projects, so this one has been labeled a "project"), is to walk - and he's working on that and I expect he will soon. One thing worth mentioning, that happened while he was in the hospital - the doctors thought he wasn't going to be cognizant when all this was done due to all of the operations, infection, etc, but there was a point when my sister walked into our Dad's hospital room and when she sat down, he seemed to be pointing to the tv with his eyes (he couldn't talk then because the ventilator impacted talking & swallowing). The nurses didn't think it meant anything (in fact, they probably thought it was a sign he was not cognizant), when in fact, he was being very smart and very much on top of things - he was indicating to my sister that her favorite show was on! and trying to suggest she could sit down and enjoy herself. (Just like my Dad to put other people's needs first, even at a critical time for himself.) Fortunately, my sister, who is a very sensitive person, knew what my Dad was trying to "say". She held firm when she told the doctors & nurses he was cognizant. They didn't believe her, but she held firm. I'm glad she did, because I tend to think that influenced some of the good treatment he had. At a minimum, it helped everyone be more encouraged. It feels GREAT to be able to hear him talk again. It was our first real conversation since he got ill in October. I wasn't sure if we'd have that chance to talk again. His energy is still a bit low, but he made it through quite an ordeal. He's progressing quite well. Hearing my Dad talk yesterday, made me feel like there's still magic in the world and so much to be happy for. I feel like we got our Dad back. I feel very, very lucky. Regards, Amy J

To: The Duke of URL© who wrote (174230)	4/25/2003 1:38:56 PM
From: GVTucker	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 186894

Duke, RE: DO NOT CONFUSE DISCLOSURE AND CONTROL OF COMPENSATION AGREEMENTS WITH their financial and tax effect. I have studied this problem years before you knew it was a problem. While we disagree on the option expensing issue, the importance of that is minor to what you say above. To many in this entire debate, the issue of whether options are good or bad is one and the same with the option expensing issue and tax issues. On the contrary, as you say, they are very different. No matter whether options are expensed or not, whether the tax break is given for options or not, the disclosure is there already. The shareholders are already in control. TIAA-CREF's proposal to their 50 largest holdings recently demonstrated that. 48 of the 50 agreed to put the issue to shareholders. Heck, look at Intel. There's a vote right there, on the proxy statement. If you're a shareholder and you don't like the way Intel keeps options off the income statement, you've got a say. Vote contrary to Barrett's recommendation. On whether or not employee stock options are good or bad, the market will do just fine making that judgement on its own. Heck, even on the other side of the ledger, looking solely at the financial statements, the market will solve that issue, too. And so that leaves only one problem that would need real intervention, the tax break given to corporations. As a rather active participant in all this for a while, sorry about that. Everyone else that wants to continue this, fine. If I have anything else to add on ESO's, I'll do it over on the ESO thread.

To: The Duke of URL© who wrote (174230)	4/25/2003 3:50:55 PM
From: Lizzie Tudor	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 186894

DO NOT CONFUSE DISCLOSURE AND CONTROL OF COMPENSATION AGREEMENTS WITH their financial and tax effect. I have studied this problem years before you knew it was a problem. Hi Duke and thread, I'm sure that most here have read that Apple shareholders approved an options expensing measure against the rec of the BOD. What this is saying is that the shareholders are dissatisfied with the BOD (not that there is any surprise in this)- but I would suggest that those companies like intel who are voicing loud opposition to options expensing draft an executive pay proposal and put it forth to the shareholders immediately. The Apple board could have thwarted this vote had they taken some sort of action to stem executive compensation in some way, imo - and most importantly, tie all pay or any options grants to stock price and performance/profitability. If the stock just sits there or goes down and financial performance is bad, execs should not be compensated heavily. The fact that these boards are just sitting there, in the middle of what is obviously something of a shareholder revolt, is amazing to me. My personal view is that I don't want options expensing, but I sure can't defend some of these pay packages for executives in this decline except for companies that have really performed exceptionally in taking share (Cisco is the only one really)- and even then, executives in performing companies should be paid well, not obscenely.