Silicon Investor (SI) -- The First Internet Community

STOCKTALK

We've detected that you're using an ad content blocking browser plug-in or feature. Ads provide a critical source of revenue to the continued operation of Silicon Investor. We ask that you disable ad blocking while on Silicon Investor in the best interests of our community. If you are not using an ad blocker but are still receiving this message, make sure your browser's tracking protection is set to the 'standard' level.

Pastimes : History's effect on Religion -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?

To: zonder who wrote (37)	5/6/2003 1:32:32 PM
From: Sun Tzu	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 520

> I think you mean "environment" rather than "history". Nope! > The latter suggests that a religion changes through time as history unfolds It does. Clearly the magnitude of change is greatest in the earlier years. But religion changes through out. And if per chance there is a great shock to the system, religion will change drastically. Consider that Islam did not really solidify for its first 400 years. Even then, it continued to change for another 400 years. And even as late as late 19th century, it was still giving rise to various sects and off shoot religions. As another example, consider that Zoroasterians originally welcomed everyone to their faith. However after they migrated to India, they mixed concepts of religion and race (similar to what the Jews did) to avoid loss of identity. > I cannot say my knowledge of Islam is anywhere near exhaustive, but neither can I think of any part of it that has changed through time... So you think that the many sects of Sunnis such as Hambali, Hanafi, Bukharai, Wahaabi, etc and the Shia sects such as Jafari, Zeydi, Ismaili, etc, and even the free-form sects of Islam such as Khawarej, Suffis, Motazellah and so on all existed from the day one and were not effected by the political process? Or are you saying they are not Muslim? > When was there only one Imam, which could be compared to a King? In Shia that has always been the case. In case of Jafari (the 12-Imam sect) this was the case until 15th centur AD (I think) whereby the religion came to believ the 12th Imam is the Messiah hidden from the oppressive governments until revived by God in a later date. > Actually I checked with Google, and it seems peacock meat is quite "halal" I don't see the word "peacock" in the list. Like I said, going by the rules, peacock would be halal. But I have read instructions that made the exception for the peacock. > it seems to me that religions change so little through history that any change is a rare exception. Sorry...I disagree. See above. The best way to look at religion, I think, is to look at it the same way one views a nation. In fact, the word "nation" in the middle east means "fallowers of a religion". For example, when America was formed it went through many changes in its early decades. These changes were as much out of the insights of the founding fathers as they were from the historical background of the era they lived in. Clearly the there are ideals in the American Constitution which are not unlike religious beliefs. And again, just like a religion, the constitution is concerned with preserving itself. However, now that many of the bugs have been worked out, it would be hard to change the law of the land. It would take an act of God to reverse the First Amendment or other major tenets of the constitution. Yet, just like religious interpretations, the constitution has been interpreted and reinterpreted according to the needs. After WW2, the freedom of speech was curbed to exclude spread of hate. And as recently as a decade ago, a supreme court justice rulled that "the constitution is not a license for suicide". Similarly, while there is no democracy in Islam (or any other religion for that matter), many religious leaders in Iraq are having interpretations of Islam that allows for a parliament and a democratic Islamic regime. So I think religion does a change a lot with times. Sun Tzu

To: zonder who wrote (37)	5/6/2003 1:49:23 PM
From: Sun Tzu	Respond to of 520

Oops, ok Peacock is "makrooh"...which means you should not eat it unless you have to, or otherwise it is frawned upon...I'll see if I can find a text that says it is Haram...this is what I've found so far which seems pretty close to me 2770. All birds, like eagle, vultures and wild falcons having a claw and talon, are Haraam to eat. As an obligatory precaution, one should refrain from eating the meat of all types of crows and bat and peacock. Other birds like the hens, the pigeons, the sparrows (nightingale, lark, starling) and ostrich are Halal to eat. But it is Makrooh to eat birds like swallows and hoopoes. lankarani.org

To: zonder who wrote (37)	5/6/2003 2:05:24 PM
From: Sun Tzu	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 520

Funny enough, I searched several of most important Sunni texts and there is no reference to peacock there. It seems only the Shia frown upon eating peacock, which actually goes towards illustrating my point.

To: zonder who wrote (37)	5/6/2003 7:19:09 PM
From: Sun Tzu	Respond to of 520

Although the entire article is not related to the topic of discussion, this much of it is: Muhammad ibn Abd al Wahhab, founder of Wahhabism, was born in 1703 in the Central Arabian region of Najd, now the locale of Riyadh, the capital of Saudi Arabia. Advocating rebellion against the Ottoman Caliphate, al Wahhab condemned as unbelievers Muslims who enjoyed music, participated in festivals, or showed too much compassion or mercy. This zealot may have burned out in the desert of Arabia but for the chance occurrence that in 1744 he sought refuge in a village ruled by a local family famous for banditry, known as al Sa'ud. The al Sa'ud family and al Wahhab formed an alliance to conquer local settlements. By 1788 the Wahhab-Sa'ud alliance controlled most of Arabia and this provoked an inevitable counter reaction by the Ottoman Empire. Throughout the 19th and early 20th centuries the Sa'ud family fought for control of Arabia. As well as joining forces with a religious movement, the Sa'ud family also made an alliance with Britain to oppose the Ottomans, and this British connection paid dividends when the Ottoman Empire vanished after the First World War. The pattern was set: religious extremism at home and an alliance with the strongest foreign power abroad. The Wahhabis have extraordinary hatred of Shiism -- in 1801 they attacked the Shia holy city of Karbala in Iraq, murdering thousands of citizens and desecrating the tomb of Husayn, the grandson of the Prophet -- and are easily the most conservative of the four schools of Sunni Islam. The Wahhabis are distinguished by being more opposed to "unbelievers" within Islam than unbelievers of other faiths. Thus, when the Saudi royal family finances the expansion of Wahhabism to other lands through the support of schools, the building of mosques, or aid to extremists like the Taliban, they are threatening the Sunni majority that already exists in those countries. nationalpost.com Sun Tzu ...now what we need is a devout Wahhabi to discuss the other side of the case.

To: zonder who wrote (37)	5/6/2003 8:59:10 PM
From: E. T.	Read Replies (2) \| Respond to of 520

"it seems to me that religions change so little through history that any change is a rare exception. "History's effect on religion", imho is Very Little Indeed... " That is what every organized religion would have you believe. I can't point to how religion is changing today, but over the last 4000 years it's easy enough to see,imo. From my upbringing as a fundamentalist christian this is my take. In 900 BCE the five books of moses are put to paper. Abraham came on the scene (if you believe it) about 900 years before, so whatever "jewish" religion he was practicing lacked the free-us-from bondage theme we find after the exodus from Egypt in about 1280BCE. The disappearance of the ten tribes of israel after 800BCE changed the character of the subsequent old testament books. The temples's destruction in 70 CE, transformed the hebrew temple-based (animal sacrificing) religion into Judaism. At near the same time, with the murder of Jesus's brother james, the Jerusalem christian church lost its strongest voice in favor of following Jesus's teachings within The Law. A series of historical events shaped religious practice and belief. There's catholicism from which historical events led to a breakaway lutheran church, to the calvins, .... the mormons.... change never stops. It's not really religion (maybe I mean spiritual) if it remains static, imo. The most important religious stories talk of radical change from one way of thinking/living to another. Noah, Moses, Abraham, the prophets, the christian disciples all embrace change, that's the message ... change is where it's at.